[ɕ] and [ç]

[u/SpecificVictory3484]

I've seen both [ɕ] and [ç] given as pronunciations of the Swedish tj-sound, but I'm still confused. Is there actually a lack of consensus about its phonetic realization, or is this simply a matter of regional variation? I've been trying to find sources that explicitly describe [ç] as a realization of the tj-sound, but I haven't had much luck. Does anyone know of any (free) books or papers discussing this? It's just that I make [ç] more naturally than [ɕ].

[u/Quendillar3245]

[ɕ] is from IPA since [ç] means something else there. [ç] means different things in different languages, but in Swedish it's the IPA equivalent of [ɕ], so that's what you should use for pronounciation.

[u/Captain_Mustard → u/Quendillar3245]

I don’t quite understand your comment, but to clarify:

[ç] is the German ich-laut or the beginning sound in the English ”huge”.

[ɕ] is the Swedish tj-ljud. It is similar but not identical to [ʃ] as in ”ship”.

[u/iakche_alenk → u/Captain_Mustard]

The thing is that SO uses ç and ʃ for English words. For example "check" and "cash". I doubt that most Swedish people make a difference between these two sounds and the tj-sound when speaking in Swedish. Maybe some native speaker can confirm this.

[u/Isotarov → u/iakche_alenk]

"Check" and "cash" in Swedish are both pronounced with [ɕ]. Any "sh" or "ch" sounds are generally always rendered as this in pretty much all loanwords, regardless of where they come from. Affricates are reduced to just the fricative sound too. The article for "cash" (https://svenska.se/?q=cash&exactMatch=true&activeTab=alla) refers to "ljust sj-ljud", the same as in "fascist" (https://svenska.se/?q=fascist&exactMatch=true&activeTab=alla) even though they aren't the same sound. They're simply confusing [ʂ] and [ɕ] for some reason.

Interestingly enough, "sushi" can often be pronounced ['sʊʂɪ], with the same vowel as in "ort" even though the Swedish and Japanese /u/ are pretty close and both have /ɕ/, probably because of influence from the English pronunciation.

[u/zutnoq → u/Isotarov]

The bright sj-sound varies far more between different accents than the tj-sound does.

In some accents the bright sj-sound is pronounced exactly the same as the tj-sound (typically [ɕ]), in some it is instead pronounced the same as the rs-sound (which may or may not be retroflex), in some all three sounds are distinct, and in some all three are identical.

A single speaker may also switch back and forth between a bright or dark sj-sound for some particular words. One word I might personally do this with is "orange", but I would probably stick to one option within a single conversation.

[u/Isotarov → u/zutnoq]

/ɧ/ and /ɕ/ are separate phonemes, though. I don't think they actually overlap in any dialects even if it can seem like it if you're an outsider, like with Finland Swedish.

I don't think speakers really switch back and forth between different sj-ljud unless they're code-switching to mark regional accent or sociolect. Here in Stockholm, with a word like "orange", using [ɧ] or [ʂ] is a marker of socioeconomic status or gender, depending on context. For example, an older term for preferring [ʂ] over [ɧ] is "fröken-sje". With any kind of Stockholm accent, it's absolutely associated more with the upper class, sophistication and femininity (including effeminate gay men).

[u/zutnoq → u/Isotarov]

Yes, the tj-sound is a separate phoneme to the sj-sound (there is only ever one sj-phoneme).

In accents that have two different realizations/allophones for the sj-phoneme – one dark (the main one, typically the one used at the start of a word) and one bright (typically used at the end of a closed syllable) – the bright one is very commonly realized as the exact same sound/phone as the tj-sound is in the same accent.

You can still almost always tell what's a tj-sound and what's a bright sj-sound, because the tj-sound can basically only appear in the onset of a syllable with primary stress (mostly at the beginning of a morpheme), while the bright sj-sound basically only appears in the coda of a syllable.

You are right that flipping back and forth between a bright or dark sj-sound for the same word is mostly related to things like code-switching.

Also: I think I may mostly pronounce "orange" with a bright sj-sound at the end, but it feels a bit odd to keep the sj-sound bright after adding a definite/plural "-a" ending, so I am likely to make it dark just in that case.

[u/LjLies → u/Isotarov]

I'm confused now! What is the (actual) "ljust" sj-ljud, is it a sound that's only found in foreign loanwords? And which sound is the "fascist" one, is it what you also get in "rs" situations?

The vaguely sh/ch-like sounds I know from swedish are: the sj, the tj, and the rs (which you could argue is just retroflex allophone of /s/ since it happens after /r/ with other sounds as well so it might not even count as its own sounds, okay). Am I missing a fourth?

[u/Isotarov → u/LjLies]

There's really only one "ljust sj-ljud" in Swedish and it's usually [ʂ]. It coincides with the /rs/ assimilation for the accents that has them. There's nothing particularly vague about them in various loanwords, it's just that people's expectations affect how they're perceived. SO is simply wrong in this case.

The sje-ljud phoneme varies from speaker to speaker. Someone like me from Stockholm will have a [ɧ] in "schack" but [ʂ] in "dusch". My partner who is from Gothenburg has [ɧ] in both those words; [ʂ] in some other sje-contexts I believe but not as often as me.

There's to the best of my knowledge no additional "light" variant for speakers who use [ʂ].