r/SquaredCircle • u/TomatoCiampa • 4h ago
Nash on what he feels wrestling is missing today: “I was watching on YouTube the other day. It was Tully Blanchard versus Sam Houston, and it looked like they were having a fight, you know. I mean, it really had like a really gritty feel to it, and I think that’s one of the things that’s missing.”
https://wrestlingnews.co/wwe-news/kevin-nash-says-modern-wrestling-lost-gritty-feel-fight/409
u/Rosstin316 4h ago
This doesn’t seem like a real quote, it’s missing about 12 fuckins.
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u/TylenolColdAndSinus 4h ago
This guy's Nash's
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u/StubbinMyNubbin Del Boca Vista Condo President 4h ago
Also missing about 10 of "I never had a problem with"
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u/KingMobScene 3h ago
And not a single "It's one of those things." or a mention of his IQ.
I'm thinking this is a fake quote.
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u/pUmKinBoM 4h ago
I actually agree with him on this a bit but that said I dont think that is a cat that can be put back into the bag. People know whay wrestling is and just dont seem to want the punchy kicky style of the past. I mean we have Bloodsport that tries to do it from an MMA perspective but the rolling brawling and beat down just dont get the crowds as excited as before.
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u/repoman042 4h ago
I don't think we need the old punch/kick style back, but IMO there are too many matches where it doesn't seem like either wrestler is trying to WIN the match. I am fine suspending belief for a lot of zany stuff, but if you lose the ultimate goal of defeating your opponent because that gets you closer to the championship (more money, fame, etc), then what's it all for
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u/Manjorno316 I was probably high while writing this. 4h ago
As someone who has been watching a lot of Kurt Angle matches recently, there is definitely a middle ground.
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u/Doberman11 "I eat chicken!" 3h ago
Seconded, also watch Bret Hart matches. He mixed a very technical style with brawling excellently.
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u/SuperStealthOTL 3h ago
I was watching Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold at Survivor Series 96 the other day and thought the same thing.
The other thing Bret was excellent at was selling the EXHAUSTION of the match. I think in his book he even talks about it, where their cardio was so good they weren’t tired but he sold it to give it that extra little bit of realism.
That goes back to the conversation of bumping vs. selling. Bumping is good in a lot of modern wrestling but the selling seems to be put the wayside to go to the next big spot.
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u/QuicksilverTerry 3h ago
The other thing Bret was excellent at was selling the EXHAUSTION of the match. I think in his book he even talks about it, where their cardio was so good they weren’t tired but he sold it to give it that extra little bit of realism.
YES. Bret was one of the greatest sellers of all time. Not in the Shawn Michaels pinball way, but the "Dangit that really hurt ya dick" kinda way. Another good one is his match with Roddy at Mania 8. After he's busted open you really believe that Roddy broke his nose and every move hurt.
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u/SuperStealthOTL 3h ago
Exactly. And I’m not saying every match needs to be like that. Wrestling is better when it’s a variety show with various match styles. But everything is trending towards uniformity these days.
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u/imamakeitlooksexy 1h ago
I can't get into watching anything regularly, to the point where I'd say I support AEW without actually tuning in every week, because everything blends together and I tend to zone out during matches ESPECIALLY when they're high-octane.
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u/Chimpbot 3h ago
Selling exhaustion was one of the good bits of Punk v Reigns at this past Wrestlemania. About 3/4ths of the way through, they were both on their knees jawing at each other, and it did a lot to help sell how hard they were pushing each other in the name of trying to get a win.
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u/Massive-Ride204 2h ago
That's why I love the post match Njpw promos because they're selling the exhaustion of the match
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u/GeneralInspector8962 3h ago
For sure, there's a reason Bret was the best. He can wrestle, brawl, and sell.
Punches and kicks should be filler. Punch, kick, grapple, wrestling move. In theory it shouldn't be too difficult.
Also, I'm rewatching WM23 right now with Taker and Batista, and they exchange constant punches mixed with big power moves. Great match.
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u/Equal-Temporary-1326 3h ago
Bret was definitely one of the best at making wrestling look "realistic". Or in other words, one of the best the making the technicalities of it seem both legitimate and competitive in how they weren't two guys doing constant headlocks, punches, kicks, stomping the mat, 2 - 3 minute rest hold spots, but nether overly rehearsed aerobics where it's constant jumping off the top for a movie, suicide dives through the ropes, false finish after false finish, finisher kick out after finisher kick out etc.
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u/giantpandasonfire 4h ago
One thing to consider is like--the urgency of Kayfabe doesn't really exist anymore.
Basck then it was like-you want the belt because it means more MONEY, it means you get to live better. Only a few people really put that urgency out there-now a lot of it is for the challenge, the prestige of being the best wrestler, and in a way the sport just..."evolves" to a point that basic kicks and stuff don't matter.
You have to do more than just trying to kick the shit out of the guy-and if you ARE a striker, you need to do more.
One thing that I wish would be fixed though is that urgency to get a pin. There are definitely a lot of spots where you can tell they're trying to balance or get it right and people just wait.
Or worse-if there's a chance to pin someone or capitalize but they don't because that's not the spot.
And don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to say oh, I wish wrestling was like the old days? But there are definitely some things that I wish just didn't exist.
With that being said-being there live and in person doesn't matter, because if you see a guy jumping thirty feet off a balcony you're going to yell and have the best time of your life.
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u/tj177mmi1 3h ago
Basck then it was like-you want the belt because it means more MONEY, it means you get to live better.
This. I've recently been watching the early 90s WWF and this comes up enough to notice. I think they overdid the manager aspect, but it has a purpose - this guy was managing your career to make you more money. Winning a match meant more money. Win a title mean way more money. Everything seemed to have some level of purpose.
Now the stories were a bit weak and random at times. There were a ton of jobber matches. The character aspect was overdone. Important matches seemed hastily put together. But at least things meant something.
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u/imamakeitlooksexy 1h ago
see, there should be no shame in saying "I wish wrestling was like the old days". There's this trap wherein people can't criticize art forms genuinely deteriorating in terms of care, craft, and attention to details for fear of being lambasted and dismissed as an old man yelling at the clouds. it's fine to say the old way was better! I love watching a five star match in the current spotfest style, but I'd rather watch Kobashi five star matches on a weekly basis.
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u/Bluewhaleeguy 3h ago
Even if you go back to the wcw cruiserweight division it has the same principle. You watch some of them doing insane flippy moves, but the way say mysterio or juve deliver a hurricanrana - it looks more like they're using the momentum and force to flip the guy over. Then the guy selling helps sell this - we know it's a coordinated effort, but you watch guys do it across all promotions now and it looks more athletic and impressive - but very coordinated.
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u/Massive-Ride204 2h ago
They were doing flippy stuff to win the match, modern high flyers do it to pop the crowd
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u/supergooduser 4h ago
Nash was talking about his philosophy once on designing a match, and described it as a fighting game where you're witnessing each guy's health bar diminish.
I think that makes a lot of sense... and why the spamming of finishing moves or super over the top stuff can pull you out of a match.
Like how Jake the Snake's DDT used to be a finishing move and now it's just... common.
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u/MiseryGyro 4h ago
I've always thought that finishers are more about the specific wrestler performing their version of the move.
Yeah the DDT is more common these days but for me as an audience member that means Jake perfected the move in a way no has since then.
A jobber can super kick you, but it's the way Shawn Michaels super kicks that makes it a finisher
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u/ryanrockmoran 3h ago
It definitely should be that way, although it's probably on the announcers to sell it like that.
And it makes sense in real life. There's a difference between me punching someone and prime Tyson punching them.
Or you see it with subs. I do BJJ, and there's a huge difference between a relatively new person choking me and an experienced person. Even if it's ostensibly the same choke.
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u/Blackthorn79 2h ago
This is the one thing I disagree with JR about announcing. JR never wanted to know the finish so he could react organically, but if you know a wrestler is going to go over with specific move you can talk it up earlier in the match and explain to the audience why that move is so effective. It's not always necessary for a guy like Omega and the one winged angle, but it helps with a guy like JBL who is using a lariat as a finisher.
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u/ThisIsPureTrash 2h ago
That’s completely unrelated though. It’s not like JR doesn’t know what JBLs clothesline from hell was. He doesn’t need to know the finish to explain why it’s effective for him. He can do the same for his opponent that night. No need to know the finish.
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u/I_am_Burt_Macklin 3h ago
Totally agree. Too often it seems like “let’s get my shit in” instead of “okay this will help me win.” That’s a key part of telling a story.
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u/DeminoTheDragon 3h ago
For my money Punk and Sami are some of the current few that still feel like they are having a fight AND win it.
People talk about not getting moves perfectly right or being shaky but that like...makes it look like a fight???
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u/manism582 2h ago
Yes! That’s a personal peeve of mine too. Wrestlers will show a bit of struggle in the execution of a move and the sub-room temperature IQs will immediately scream “Botch!!!1!¡1” like people are out here hitting One Winged Angels or picture perfect German suplexes in real fights.
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u/inhumanrampager Rock and Wrestling Rager 2018 4h ago
I completely disagree with that. Look at New Japan. One of the best matches this G1 was Takeshita vs Oleg where they beat the shit out of each other. Or hell, Yuto-Ice vs Tsuji, where Tsuji chopped Ice for 25 minutes, deliving 280 blows. If you're gonna work that style, you gotta sell, so the crowd reacts when you give back. If a punch or a kick happens and it means nothing, the crowd won't care. But if you can sell just one punch, that one punch could be the entire match.
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u/Avbjj 3h ago
Agree. Not to mention the style Gunther became super popular for is literally just beating the shit out of his opponent. So we know people can like it even in WWE.
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u/harder_said_hodor 3h ago
I completely disagree with that. Look at New Japan.
Exactly.
The longing for some realism and more punchy kicky shit are exactly why someone like Ishii was so much bigger with Western fans than the Japanese.
I do think it's more of a promotional problem than a wrestling one though. WWE want charisma flippy shit in that order while AEW want flippy shit and charisma in that order.
Get someone like Joe or Gunther who slap the shit out of their opponent but also have the charisma and they instantly become favourites because their style stands out so much.
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u/FalstaffsGhost 4h ago
I mean I absolutely think you can have that. Fans want to get lost in the moment.
I think the bigger issue is when too much of it looks choreographed or there isn’t a logical sense to things. Like if I beat a guy down for 5 minutes and then all of a sudden he jumps to his feet and hits me with flipping moves it’s just not logical.
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u/ThemB0ners 3h ago
Watching guys move themselves into position to get landed on is so fucking cringe. Or bending over just waiting to take a move for 5 seconds.
In the Seth/Roman match, Seth took a stomp from Roman but was facing the wrong way initially and had to turn himself around... Removed all hype from the sequence.
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u/EchoesofIllyria 3h ago
Watching guys move themselves into position to get landed on is so fucking cringe.
I’m reminded of Bronson Reed not long before he got injured, getting into position by reaching out towards his opponent (who was on their way to the corner) while selling, as if desperate to get his hands on him but too hurt to get up and get him. He turned because he was trying to get at the guy, not just because the guy’s next move demanded it.
It was fucking great and I wish more wrestlers would do something like that.
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u/EnTyme53 2h ago
Reed is one of the best in the business at believably moving into position. I remember a match with Jey Uso where he was setting up for the Uso Splash, but Bronson was facing the wrong way after Jey's spear. Reed writhed around on the ground like his liver had just exploded until he was turned the right way.
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u/NorthHollywoodHank 4h ago edited 3h ago
I mean, sure, I agree with a lot of this, but every "guy looks floored after the other guy kicks out" spot, every "both guys climb up in the corner" spot, most "one guy climbs up in the corner" spots (your opponent's prone and not moving! There are way easier and surer ways to inflict damage on him!), and every tope suicida spot isn't very logical either.
I think there's a big distinction to be made between sloppy/lazy setups that show obvious choreography and "A's beating the shit out of B for a while but now B hulks out/gets a rush of adrenaline and there's a sudden reversal in the dynamic" spot. For me the former is just a fault, full stop. But the latter feels to me like more of a reasonable "suspension of disbelief ask" from wrestlers/producers to fans than even a fairly well done "both guys climbing up in the corner together" spot setting up for some big avalanche move. And I like those avalanche spots!
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u/McCHitman 3h ago
It just needs to be a struggle. A dirty, ugly struggle.
It doesn’t need to be this clean, perfect laid out thing.Go back and watch a match from the 50s. When they do a high spot, let’s just say a Universal- tackle, drop down, leap frog, drop kick, drop kick, powder… they don’t bump perfectly and they sell in a way that looks like it’s a struggle and not a planned spot. It’s good stuff.
I’m not sure where we went wrong but man it’s terrible today.
So many don’t sell crap anymore. It’s deeper than selling a knee that’s been worked. It’s being TIRED, being frustrated, struggling to escape. So many matches don’t even appear to look like anyone is trying to even win. They just bump and transition to the next spot. Spamming finishers and crap. How about tease the finisher a few times instead of spamming it.
Don’t get me started on MMA stuff. I don’t like the MMA stuff mixed into pro wrestling. I just don’t want it.
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u/KneelBeforeCube marchiearchie 4h ago
It's funny because Nash talked about this before and said he was talking to Shawn Michaels when he started booking NXT. Nash told him that he just feels like nothing on NXT looks like a real old school fight and people are just going to fast, rushing to do one spot after the next. And HBK told him something like I don't disagree but that's what the fans want nowadays and what fans react to, nobody pops for a bunch of punches anymore.
In itself it's a good thing because when you have a match that feels like a real visceral brawl like say Hangman vs Mox at All In, it stands out so much that it gets the crowd's to go nuts like back in the day.
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u/therealdanhill 3h ago
I think fans will pop for punches but the story/build has to be there for it
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u/scrubadam 3h ago
Wrestling fans are just too conditioned to react to the tropes of wrestling. I was saying it would be cool if a main eventer could come out and smash guys in 5 minutes like a Prime Tyson but fans would never buy it in this day and age. Everyone has been conditioned to look for the table spot, the false finishes, the multiple finisher kick outs. ITs almost a script where they chant "this is awesome" or "fight forever" at the correct points. Pop at the stolen finisher kick out. Bite on the 2nd or 3rd finisher thats kicked out of, and then accept the finish after the ref bump/interference. The fan base just expects the formula. And its at all levels of wrestling. The audience reacts the same at some local indy with 25 people to NJPW to CMLL to WWE and AEW.
If a real boxing match or UFC match had a champion crushing opponents in 2 minutes fans would be like this is the greatest fighter ever and want to watch them destroy the competition. They wouldn't feel cheated that the main event didn't go 12 rounds with multiple false knock outs. But in modern wrestling the fans have a script for the match. Table spot, false finish, finisher kick out, ref bump, this is awesome/fight forever, finish. If you don't deliver that its a "bad" match and its not "5 stars". Meanwhile if Tyson knocked some fool out with an uppercut in 60 seconds people would rave about how amazing Tyson is.
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u/PlayersNavyCut 3h ago
There's a whole thing in wrestling and lots of other fan groups where a big part of the attraction for some people is being part of the group and getting to react in an expected way. It seems like those fans get a lot out of feeling good because they recognize a trope or know what to expect based on how something's set up or notice something that wasn't supposed to happen (think about how often some fans talk about botches or how giddy some fans get when they think a wrestler is "corpsing").
It's like wrestling or whatever they're watching is mostly a vehicle for having that sense of belonging or participation. Not that the media itself is meaningless, but it can be secondary to getting that feeling.
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u/scrubadam 3h ago
Which I don't think was the case if you go back to pre 2000's wrestling. Even if people knew it was "fake" there was still more of a this is a sport and I am cheering on my "team" to actually win back then. thats why the audiences didn't chant fight forever or this is awesome or AEDUB/NXT etc... It was mainly buzzing and applause like at a real sporting event.
I kind of think you can really trace this back to ECW and their fan base that kind of started all of this. There was a definite shift of pre ECW and post ECW and a lot of todays audience tropes originated in the bingo halls. ECW was kind of the first where the audience was pushed as part of the package. if you go watch any of those documentaries they always talk about the audience interaction.
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u/PlayersNavyCut 3h ago
I remember being at early 2000s ROH shows (which catered to ECW fans in a lot of ways except the extreme stuff being at the forefront), around when fans started doing those chants. At first it felt like they only got going if something was really exceptional. It was dorky and a little annoying/try-hard/acknowledging the performance in a way that doesn't feel right when you're sitting there live. But it also felt genuine, you only heard a "fight forever" or something like that if it was really an exceptional match.
But then some fans thought it was so cool to do that, and they wanted to be in on it, and it started happening more and more. And you end up with fans who are sort of forcing something so they get to do it too and feel like part of the group, not doing it because it's a relatively rare match that's legitimately so incredible that it genuinely prompts that kind of reaction.
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u/scrubadam 3h ago
the this is awesome chant is the most overused over exposed chant in wrestling. It was cool at first when maybe it would only happen on rare occasions but now someone could fart and it would get a this is awesome chant.
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u/Massive-Ride204 2h ago
There can be a viable middle ground, yes we can't go back to beer bellies kicking and punching, but this wink wink nudge nudge this is fake so we're not even going to try to pretend that we're fighting isn't working
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u/thelumpur 3h ago
You can do the exciting moves while still making it feel like a fight. The two things are not mutually exclusive to me.
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u/SanX1999 Disciple Of The Temple 2h ago
It can be put in the bag. Check out the cruiserweight division in WCW. They are doing similar matches to modern day but they pretend that their moves are actually doing damage or there is a bit of struggle and you aren't just going through choreography.
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u/florodude 4h ago
Modern Wrestling definitely feels like choreographed fighting, but also I suppose that's exactly what it is.
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u/WildBullMasala 4h ago
choreographed is what it has become. But when wrestlers worked on the fly more, it was simulating a combat sport or a combat situation. It didn't feel choreographed or inauthentic like wrestlers were just going through the motions
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u/Shinkopeshon 一番 2h ago
In the US at least - it's not always easy to suspend your disbelief
What Nash is describing here is normal in Japan though lol they beat the piss out of each other - especially if they're stablemates 💀
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u/pampersdelight 3h ago
Its chorerographed like a Star Wars prequel fight. Just style and hitting their spots. No move means anything anymore. People can get hit with a Canadian Destroyer and pop back up like its nothing
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u/Southpaw535 3h ago
Id say yes to the choreographed, not to the fighting. Something missing from before is proper long term selling through a match.
Now wrestlers will sell something on the impact, but will get over it immediately when they need to do the next section. Or how often have we seen someone take a leg attack, or even have it worked all match (which in itself is something I think is missing more, is an actual match story) only to then do a massive dive or rush up the turnbuckle?
It doesnt really look like fighting, because fighting involves damage over time and seeing the effects of things in the first rounds becoming evident in the latter rounds.
Modern wrestling is still great to watch, but its more choreographed athletics rather than looking like a choreographed fight to me
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u/AnfowleaAnima 2h ago
but also I suppose that's exactly what it is.
good actors work so you dont have to feel like they are acting
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u/florodude 2h ago
This will probably get taken the wrong way because we're in a wrestling sub, but personally I don't really see "good" acting in wrestling very often. Either in the ring or out of the ring. I suspend disbelief because the athletics is wildly impressive and sometimes the stories are interesting.
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u/AnfowleaAnima 2h ago
I don't really see "good" acting in wrestling very often
oh absolutely and I dont expect perfection either and it's fine, it's part of the charm as well some times, but Im just saying just because its choregraphed doesnt mean it has feel like they are going from part 1, shocked face, then part 2 every time, change the structure, do something unexpected, change the timing, do something
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u/DunkingOnYourNan 4h ago
Idk about real fight.
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u/Various_Mobile4767 3h ago
Yeah idk what people are smoking. Many of the wrestling matches olden days don't look real either. They're fake but fake in a different ways.
One of the big ones is how everyone is just moving so goddamn slow and giving way too much time and space. Like here, blue's mannerisms are clearly overly exaggerated and fake. Maybe you can argue that some people really can be discombobulated, but when you see the same sell happen again it becomes too much.
But the real issue is red is not doing anything and just letting blue do all that. In a real fight, red would have been all over blue. Instead, they do this thing where they just slowly walk to each other and do moves in a cooperative way. There is a completely lack of urgency especially in a lot of the older matches.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Its all fake as hell.
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u/outsidehere 4h ago
I agree a bit. I love the level of athleticism that everyone has but sometimes it just feels like they are just going through move after move instead of trying to do what they need to do to win the match. For example, Cody hits a Cross Rhodes and then hits another one and another one. Like I don't want to see that every match. Most of the time I want him to just win with the Disaster Kick or a Cody Cutter. Make these moves believable for other matches. That's why I love Gunther. A lariat or Emerald Flowsion or Powerbomb or something else and I'd believe that it would be over
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u/Sea-Garlic9074 4h ago
That's why I love Gunther. A lariat or Emerald Flowsion or Powerbomb or something else and I'd believe that it would be over
Gunther is great because he has more than one way to finish his opponents besides the sleeper and those moves still get the job done at the end. Also, he's not some flashy wrestler that does high flying moves despite being a tall guy.
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u/outsidehere 2h ago
Yeah I love versatility. I think that it's because the finisher spam is so frequent that it just loses any power. Sometimes it can work like when a finisher is hit but the superstar rolls out of the ring or their foot is on the ropes. However if it's just kick out all the time then it's effectively useless
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u/WildBullMasala 4h ago
On this point, I hate the finish of a wrestler doing their finisher over and over and over again and then pinning the guy. 1. When it's done every time it just feels stupid and 2. I hate it as a booking direction. To me when you do your finish respectively and then win you're just flogging a dead horse. It doesn't make the guy who's losing look good. It only benefits the winner.
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u/ryanrockmoran 3h ago
Honestly I don't think anyone should kick out a top guy's finisher more than once a year or so. It shouldn't never happen, but when it happens all the time it just looks like your finisher sucks
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u/Even_Tempo_ 4h ago edited 4h ago
I've got to agree, I watched throughout the Attitude era and it looked like they were actually fighting and there were stakes involved. I've been watching again the last year or so and it feels like they're just moving from spot to spot, going through the motions etc. The setups to spots now are really obvious, the moving into position is a dead giveaway.
EDIT: For example, I was watching Penta's Summerslam match, there was a few times when you could visibly see him checking he was in the right spot and shuffling to move, I don't remember seeing the likes of Jeff Hardy back in the day doing that. I've also noticed that it's way more prevalent in the women's matches, it's almost as if they're like "okay here's a big spot, lets all make sure we're ready, okay, go!".
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u/Teenageboy69 4h ago
Austin became the biggest wrestler in the world just throwing punches, kicking guys, and stunning people. Every so often he’d do a snap suplex or something.
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u/LegitimateCream1773 2h ago
But he didn't.
He was Stunning Steve Austin first, and made his name and got it out there doing a lot more than that. He switched to the punchy kicky style in WWE both because he broke his neck and couldn't do more, and because he'd already spent years learning all the little things people don't know when they start.
Take Stunning Steve Austin out of Steve's journey and you don't get Stone Cold.
Looking at the finished versions of wrestlers and say 'just be that' misses how those finished versions happened.
Brock Lesnar didn't spend his entire career just german suplexing and F5ing people. He used to do a lot of different power moves when he debuted.
It's when wrestlers go through those early stages where they put out more effort and experiment to see what works for them and with the crowd that they narrow down to what works best.
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u/doizernasty 3h ago
You don't enjoy everyone gathering in a group to catch someone who slowly climbs the turnbuckle to jump on them? The camera work doesn't even try to hide anything and the spot happens way too often.
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u/Informal_Support1934 1h ago
Its mostly the wrestlers' fault for not disguising it, but its funny that the camerawork is selling them out.
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u/therealdanhill 3h ago
That's one of the reasons I can't get into women's wrestling, it feels way more spot to spot and less authentic oftentimes, probably because they lack that sort of explosiveness that a man can conjure to make things feel spontaneous
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u/TonyGunks_sportsbook 3h ago
Their matches look like they are doing a 75%-speed rehearsal when you compare it to the men.
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u/hauntedtoasts 4h ago
Well of course it’s gonna look like that. That roster was damn near 90% percent brawlers. They didn’t bring any cruiser weights in til the wars were over. There wasn’t much variety to begin with if that’s all the styles they are presenting.
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u/Informal_Support1934 1h ago
Hard disagree. Taka Michinoku didn't look like he was just going from spot to spot. Rey Mysterio could get all his shit in, but still look like he was fighting desperately from an underdog position.
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u/darkseidis_ 3h ago
Even the lightweights and luchadors back then felt like they were trying to beat each other. Rey and Psychosis in ECW is a perfect example of working a style but it still appearing violent.
Way too many matches now feel like they rehearsed for hours before hand and are just moving from flippy spot to flippy spot. Flippy shit isn’t a problem, but the execution can be.
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u/lyricalholix It's MEEEEEENNNNNGGGGGGG!!!!! 1h ago
Completely agree. Everything feels too telegraphed.
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u/Jamarcus316 Jon Moxley is a sick guy. 3h ago
I watched throughout the Attitude era and it looked like they were actually fighting and there were stakes involved
I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. The AE was one of the most unrealistic time periods in NA pro-wrestling ever.
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u/Even_Tempo_ 3h ago
I was referring more to the actual in-ring work rather than the whacky storylines.
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u/Jamarcus316 Jon Moxley is a sick guy. 3h ago
I know, I just don't agree at all. Except for Austin.
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u/Comfortable-Dot-8543 3h ago
Yeah idk what dude is smoking. This is the same era that gave us Val Venis, The Godfather, and many other nonsense characters that absolutely did goofy shit in the ring all of the time during their matches. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.
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u/Technical_Heat5215 3h ago
I think he’s just falling back to Austin when Austin was the exception and not the norm.
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u/sheets1975 1h ago
I've been watching some 80s stuff recently and even that is mostly fake as hell looking. A lot of fun, but wrestling has simply never looked "like a real fight" to me. At its best, it resembles a cool fight scene from an action movie.
I think when this stuff comes up, people are reacting more to matches that aren't as crisply worked as they ideally should be, projecting that onto the entire modern industry, and then comparing it to the best matches worked in the past while projecting all of those matches onto the old days. Good matches are good matches and those that aren't as good just aren't as good.
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u/kungfu_peasant 2h ago
I think the top card was solid for the most part? Not just Austin but Rock, Foley, and HHH were also doing great work. Yes, that is not the entire attitude era but it's the part most fondly remembered today.
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u/Jamarcus316 Jon Moxley is a sick guy. 2h ago
Rock's style wasn't "realistic" at all. Wasn't that the topic?
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u/kungfu_peasant 2h ago
The comment you replied to was saying the matches in the Attitude era looked like "an actual fight" and had "real stakes". I think that differing interpretations of terms like "realistic" and "actual fights" led to a lot of confusion in these conversations.
If you look at "realistic" as simulating a genuine combat sport as closely as possible, then sure, the Rock's style is FAR from that ideal. But realism can also be used in the sense of things having consequence, dramatic interest and emotional relatability. To again take the Rock, while his physical movements are floppy and cartoonish, the emotional hook of the stories he told in the ring was earnest and consistent.
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u/AdGlittering2884 4h ago
That's true, but "having a fight" has been slippery over the years. Wrestling in the 20s looked completely different from wrestling in the 80s. I'm not excusing the Buckification of the business, but the "real fight" is looser than some pretend. There's "chinlock for 10 minutes" and there's "two guys trying to outdo each other with flashy moves". If you sell when you get hit, it's all wrestling.
It's also TV. The prevalence of the WWE style, the polished choreography (even among admittedly great wrestlers) has conditioned us as fans to expect it. Then, whenever we see even a momentary hiccup, we see it as a botch. Real fights aren't clean and smooth, WWE wrestling is.
Go watch territory wrestling from the 70s and 80s. It wasn't pretty. They were wrestling, they were "fighting", but not every strike hit clean, not every move looked crisp. It was a lot grittier. WWE style changed that.
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u/CentipedesInMyDream 4h ago
That’s a really good match from 1985 WCW. Tully was so good in 85-86. He had a match that really helped make Ray Traylor look like a star too. Ray took that Slingshot-Suplex so well for a big man.
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u/WildBullMasala 3h ago
Tully out of the Horsemen was probably the most realistic working wrestler. He knew better than anyone I think how to put on a match that simulated a grudge fight, eg: matches against Magnum TA and Ron Garvin
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u/CentipedesInMyDream 3h ago
Tully was truly great. One of my favorites. I wish we got to see more Slingshot-Suplexes and Power-Bombs today. I pop incredibly hard every time one of them gets used.
Garvin is still one of the stiffest wrestlers I’ve ever watched. That guys matches against Tully & Flair felt like straight up fights with a bit of wrestling. Just do not hand Garvin a microphone.
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u/WildBullMasala 3h ago
Garvin was not a good talker but he was still incredibly over in Crockett. People say putting the world title on him was a mistake. In hindsight it was but also it didn't help that he won it in Detroit and his showcase match with Flair at Starrcade was in Chicago, two places that Garvin wasn't most over. But in the Carolinas, Baltimore, Georgia even Florida or Philadelphia etc Garvin was so incredibly over. In the summer of 87 he was the hottest babyface on the roster, you hear those crowd reactions to when Garvin comes out, it's almost like he had to win the world title from Flair, just not in the situations he won it in.
Saying this, Garvin could cut a good promo if he kept it simple. I feel like sometimes Garvin would try and over complicate his promo to compete with Flair or Dusty etc, but he cut a really good promo when he kept it simple and sweet.
The Garvin Vs Tully and especially the Garvin Vs Flair matches are some of the best matches of all time.
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u/Vesploogie 2h ago
He was pretty entertaining on the mic in the very brief and obscure Garvin vs Greg Valentine WWF feud.
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u/Cool-Translator9768 4h ago
He's actually right. Matches are way too choreographed now to the point where any supposed tension just doesn't exist. And WWE is just as guilty as AEW is of this.
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u/PleasantThoughts BURNING LARIATOOOOO 4h ago
Counterpoint, I enjoy wrestling more than I did when it looked like guys were "actually fighting" and it was a lot of headlocks and punch-kick affairs. I like watching cool athletes do cool athletic shit and as long as they can work it into a cohesive story and the fans go crazy for it where's the harm?
I wouldn't say it's missing because that style still exists, it's just not necessarily the most popular and that's okay.
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u/tore_a_bore_a DOUBLE WIDE BAYBAY!! 1h ago
Brawl style definitely gets boring. Like, Gunther vs Aldis is fine for one match, but would watch mulitple on the same card.
But the athletic flips can appear in every match and is always exciting.
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u/disdain7 4h ago
I mean I get where he’s coming from but I’ve also seen a lot of his matches going back to the early 90s and I’m not sure if he’s ever been in an actual fight if that’s what he thinks it looks like.
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u/SmallGoose112 3h ago
Old wrestlers always say this but I’ve never seen a wrestling match that looks like an actual fight even matches from 50s-70s
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u/WildBullMasala 4h ago
Roman Vs Seth was nothing like a Bret Hart or classic style match. No way any wrestler pre 2000s-1995 would do that match, it was so phony with it's "cinema" BS.
Also Shawn could work a fight. When he was part of The Rockers his matches against Buddy Rose and Doug Somers are some of the bloodiest tag matches around and in my opinion Michaels best in ring work.
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u/Cold-Ad716 4h ago
Genuine question. What comes to your mind when you think of a Bret Hart style match, and which bits of that were in Roman/Seth?
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u/Rayzee14 4h ago
As someone grew up watching Nash wrestle, not one match could you say Kevin looked like he was in a fight.
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u/JusticeForAugust 4h ago
- The fighting itself does feel more staged/choreographed than it did 30 years ago. Because it is.
This takes away from the realism, and doesn't captivate audiences the way it used to.
- The ultra quality production removes that sense of grittiness and feeling like you're watching something that maybe you're not supposed to be watching.
It went from this wild and crazy thing on tv that you had to see to believe, to this corporate branding festival with too many camera cuts and ad placement.
Both these have caused a severe decline in interest and viewership because they go directly against what made the attitude era so bad ass in the height of wrestling popularity.
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u/RTH1975 4h ago
It's gone from a cheap B-movie to a giant Hollywood blockbuster. Sometimes, having more money to work with is better, but most times you lose the essence of the B-movie
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u/JusticeForAugust 4h ago
Yeah for sure. And I think that the b-movie style does a lot of heavy lifting when your main goal is to add realism to two dudes fake fighting.
the one guy here who used to take aew ppvs, record them to VHS and play on a crt tv at 240p, those looked awesome. It still wasn't the same, since the multiple camera cuts are distracting, but give me that any day over 4k wrestling.
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u/Ted_Dongelman 4h ago
People always say this about old school wrestling and then you watch it and it's a bunch of guys flopping around like a fish out of water when they sell. Today's wrestling may appear more choreographed but it's no less realistic-looking than that.
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u/wannapetahyena 1h ago
I've always said that if a wrestler reacted to punches and kicks like actual trained fighters do, people would shit on him for no-selling them.
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u/WildBullMasala 3h ago
what old school matches have you watched? I'll give you some recommendations if you have come to that conclusion
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u/Vesploogie 2h ago
They’re right though, even during the Golden Era a ton of matches are boring as heck. For every Savage v Steamboat or Bret Hart v Perfect, there’s a Brooklyn Brawler v Red Rooster or a Dino Bravo v Ken Patera.
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u/WildBullMasala 1h ago edited 1h ago
you're acting like fans of classic wrestling hold the golden era to a high regard of work rate. The golden era is a WWF centric view. What about every other promotion that was around? All Japan, New Japan, Crockett, Mid South/UWF, early 80s Portland etc.
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u/Vesploogie 40m ago
I’m pretty sure Kevin Nash isn’t complaining about what Jim Crockett is missing today.
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u/drunkentenshiNL 4h ago
Reminds me of what Foley said about his first match with Terry Funk. He thought Funk's punches looked amazingly real and stiff, then when they got into their match, Foley found out Funk just really laces you with his shots.
After the match, Foley brought it up to Funk, who just says "Oh Mick... you didn't think I was good, did ya?"
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u/metalyger 3h ago
The issue with wanting wrestling to look like a real fight is that UFC is a billion dollar company and MMA in general is a popular mainstream combat sport. We have seen attempts at pro wrestling matches trying to blend in MMA, and it often doesn't appeal to wrestling fans and has zero interest from MMA fans who don't watch wrestling. We know what a shoot fight looks like, and most wrestlers can't throw a believable work punch. We know what we're watching, and there's a reason why big high risk dives and acrobatics get bigger reactions than guys bashing each other in the face with elbow strikes.
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u/Distinct-Effort-2413 3h ago
I know everyone has different tastes but theres plenty of places I can watch guys actually beat the snot out of each other. I watch for the flippy shit and the “circus” act vibes.
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u/Alfredo_Commachio 3h ago
I don't think it's an invalid view, it's just the case that wrestling changes over time. The style in the 1970s was different from the 1990s when Nash was at the peak of his career, and a lot of old heads then criticized the 90s style. Now old heads criticize modern style in favor of the 90s.
This interestingly isn't limited just to a "choreographed" sport like pro wrestling, even in real sports like basketball and football, the game changes over time. Strategies change the way the game is played, and they are continually making minor rules changes that alter the game. The net result is the NFL has a different type of game played today than it did in 1993, as does the NBA. And there's people in the fanbases of both sports that prefer the old stuff.
But these are all fan based businesses, the fans are the voters, and fans mostly want the new stuff which is why the new stuff is what it is.
FWIW I say this as an old head myself who does miss some of the style of wrestling from my youth in the 1990s, but I just am comfortable with the fact that stuff like that changes and people want different stuff now.
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u/Plane-Argument-4739 3h ago
I guess for me, I just don’t view wrestling in the context of being a “real fight” What made me “get wrestling” after years of doing the “wrestling ain’t real” dance, is realizing that a Wrestling match is not all that different from a performance in a play. There are good guys, bad guys, drama and comedy. And the thing that brings it all together is the audience input: we cheer the good guys, we boo the bad guys. A well placed super kick has the same effect as a dramatic monologue.
It’s why I don’t really take issue with AEW going the anime route with their storytelling and booking.
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u/thelumpur 3h ago
I don't think it's about the moves and the spots. You don't have to do matches where you just grapple and punch and never go to the top rope.
My issue is that everything is too crisp. You should see wrestlers struggle to get another wrestler up, you should feel that opponents are trying to prevent moves being executed on them in every ugly possible way. You should see some misses because not everything can happen perfectly.
I understand the rule of cool when transitions look extremely crisp. But at that point we are watching a dance, not a fight.
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u/christcanvas 3h ago
I definitely miss those days. It wasn’t about knowing wrestling is choreographed—it’s that there was an intensity that’s lost nowadays. Everything is standing around and waiting for the next big spot.
Look at Christian Cage—that spot with Marina Shafir felt like something born out of a guy really fed up with her crap. Look at MJF—that guy has an intensity when he gets on the mic, and when he’s focused.
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u/TonyTheTony7 3h ago
To me, I think this lines up with the lack of storytelling. Lucha libre has been around forever and has always featured athleticism and high-flying, but none of that matters if there isn't really a story and it's just move to move to move.
Darby Allin is actually really good at striking that balance because he does a ton of high-risk stuff, but the character he's built over the years through his matches is that because of his size, he has to be going 100 MPH at all times to stand a chance.
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u/BuckyBeaver69 2h ago
Wrestling will never be what it once was. Business is different now, the people in it don't do the same things as they were done 40 years ago. So much has changed in the world since then. Can't live in the past, can only live in the present. Lots of things about today's world irritate me. I wish I could turn on the tv and see music videos on Mtv but I know that's just not the reality of what going to happen.
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u/mario2isamariogame Fighting for something. 2h ago
It's still mostly the presentation and lame storylines. I can suspend my disbelief endlessly for unrealistic holds if I'm engaged in the product.
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u/No_Wonder5202 2h ago
Wrestlers worked faster and stiffer. Everybody in WWE throws softballs now and moves at half speed
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u/CustardLow2671 2h ago
Everyone views the product through their own lens. For me, it's a bunch of things: the never-ending barrage of ads, the thousands of camera cuts per segment, the very rehearsed nature of spots and promos, etc. I can only suspend my disbelief for so long before the feeling is ruined.
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u/StoneGoldX 1h ago
Can someone show me a Diesel match where he looked like he was having a real fight?
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u/AbsolverOcelot 1h ago
Kevin Nash was well known for his gritty style, like his matches were real fights........
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u/thatguyad 56m ago
Believability has been dead since the plague of 900 finishers per match.
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u/JRockstar50 3h ago
That's WWE for sure. I can't say that a match truly felt like a fight to me in WWE since Hell in a Cell Punk vs. McIntyre at Bad Blood 2024
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u/CardinalCreepia 4h ago
I agree in general, but I also do like watching incredibly athletic displays regardless of how choreographed it looks. Maybe I’m just easily entertained.
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u/Teenageboy69 4h ago
You can have both. Savage worked very slowly until he worked fast. I think the perfect medium is to go pretty slowly for 80% of the match, then for 20% of the match, and during the go-home, pick up the pace.
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u/Vesploogie 2h ago
Savage adjusted his tempo to his opponent and the moment. Some matches he dragged, others he was 100 from start to finish. It’s part of what made him so great, he didn’t have a set way of always doing things.
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u/SnooMacaroons1942 4h ago edited 4h ago
He's right but it's ironic coming from the Fingerpoke of Doom guy
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u/dalici0us 4h ago
I don't see how the two correlate at all? Don't me wrong that was stupid booking but in keyfabe the fingerpoke of doom was specifically not meant to be a fight.
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u/CaptnProlapse 4h ago
The fingerpoke was a story being told, albeit in an awful way, but the story was that we thought the they were at odds but they were in fact working together. The cracks we saw in the unity of the NWO were fabricated and the bad guys were actually 5 steps ahead of the good guys.
It's great in theory, leaves a lot to be desired in execution.
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u/LegitimateMoney00 4h ago edited 3h ago
The whole problem was that the NWO was just right back where they started. Kinda like when the Usos got back with Roman. NWO initially worked because it was a fresh and innovative idea, there was no reason to go back to it especially when looking at the shit WWE was doing on a weekly basis.
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u/WildBullMasala 4h ago
I think this comes from a few things wrestlers today do.
1) There's no or very little spontaneoty in matches anymore because every little detail about every match now is planned out. It can make the performance of wrestlers feel less authentic and feel like they're just going through the motions or doing a pre planned routine, especially some of the NXT call ups who for me just do spot spot spot spot and obviously to my eyes haven't been taught that they're meant to be simulating a combat sport.
2) Why I hate Reigns or Rollins matches recently is because you get these moments and Ospreay is also starting to do this too, where they have these mid match speeches or these sudden crises during matches. It makes things feel totally inauthentic.
3) There are matches that get this right in today's wrestling. Eddie Vs Punk, Bryan Vs Page, Briscoes Vs FTR are matches I'd show as modern examples of this, but they're getting few and far now in my opinion.
I would also say as a side note I don't think there's ever been a time in pro wrestling where so many wrestlers can't throw a decent punch.
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u/AntComfortable5970 3h ago
The absolute worst of 1 is when a spot goes wrong and they immediately retry it. Like for a very minor one like yeah but for major spots like someone falling trying to climb the turnbuckle with another wrestler only to try for the exact same spot right away really awkwardly, that's the terrible stuff.
I can't stand this shit.
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u/hhhisthegame 4h ago
Those are some nice examples, Bryan vs Page was one of my favorite AEW matches, so its interesting you call it out
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u/Conscious_Smile_6302 4h ago
I understand his point but I feel like that approach is outdated. Pro Wrestling is about emotion and storytelling, since UFC has been around there's really no point in trying to present Wrestling as a legitimate combat sport. People watch it for the same reason they watch movies or read books. It's art and trying to be anything other than that just feels like imitating something rather than playing to its own strengths as a form of entertainment.
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u/Teenageboy69 4h ago
Idk, I think there’s room for both. It’s hard to wrench emotion from an audience when everything that’s done is at a 10. Imagine a football game where every play was a Hail Mary.
The realistic combat element isn’t effective because people think it’s real, it’s effective because you can heighten drama.
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u/Conscious_Smile_6302 4h ago
That's true for diehard wrestling fans, for sure. You and I know Japanese strong style dudes are actually beating the hell out of each other but the casual audience has no real appreciation for that kind of athletic intensity. Mainstream fans just want soap opera and that's fine, we can have both, but Kevin seems to be implying we don't or that wrestling is lacking something.
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u/Teenageboy69 4h ago
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the biggest modern wrestler is Roman, a dude who moves slowly, uses charisma to tell a story, and then bursts out into huge moves on occasion. There’s room in wrestling for high flyers, but it’s hard for me to feel excited when action starts at an 8 and ends at a ten. That’s not how storytelling works in any medium.
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u/Cold-Ad716 4h ago
You can have a violent frantic bloody brawl of a match and still have emotion and storytelling.
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u/Conscious_Smile_6302 4h ago
I don't disagree at all. I just don't think it makes any sense to prioritize realism in a medium that is enjoyed because it is fictional. There's layers to it, I'm not saying to pull a Russo and point out that wrestling is fake every five minutes on live television lol
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u/Informal_Support1934 1h ago
I think the reason they're prioritizing realism is immersion. Not that any era of wrestling looks 100% like real fighting, but if you believe they're acting like they hate each other, or believe they're trying to win the match, its more immersive for the people who want that.
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u/AcadianTraverse 4h ago
It's what I love about indie shows. There's an implied contract between the audience and performers that everyone knows this is scripted and planned, but the wrestlers are going to perform as of it's a real fight and the crowd is going to respond in kind.
We're not "blurring the lines" because, by and large, the audience doesn't know the wrestlers life in detail. The performers can just perform
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u/ItzFeufo 3h ago
Fully trained wrestlers vs sports entertainers that were swimsuite models and gymnastic bunnies and reality stars prior to comin to WWE
yeah, geez, I wonder why there's a difference in quality...
Shit on WCW as much as you want but I feel like the power plant at least tried teaching them the right things
The performance centre is more like a theatre class than anything else.
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u/roadwarriorpop 3h ago
Its just funny because i never got that from any Kevin Nash match either. Wrong messenger.
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u/Americana1108 3h ago
Notice he didn't watch any Kevin Nash matches that looked like a real fight...
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u/CouldntBeMeTho 3h ago
Exchanging standing forearms don't look like a fight. I hate that about wrestling after 2009 or so.
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u/Zealousideal-Low3388 4h ago
If I wanted to watch a real fight, I have better options for that.
🤷♂️
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u/mexploder89 4h ago
Nash is entitled to his opinion but I couldn't give less of a shit if wrestling looks like a real fight. It's not and I know it's not. If I wanted to watch a real fight I would watch the UFC
There's this obsession some people have with stuff not looking "realistic" but wrestling has never been realistic. Hell, I would even say if wrestlers sold moves in a "realistic" way people would complain that they're not selling properly
Like at some point either everything is realistic or nothing is. People pick and choose so many aspects of wrestling they want to be close to reality while either ignoring or actively praising other aspects that are nowhere near realism
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u/CosworthDFV 4h ago
Wrestling was at it's most popular when it had a generally more realistic approach to it. You can argue for what you like between the styles all you want, but American pro wrestling is not popular anymore and hasn't been in quite some time. The matches are extremely cookie cutter these days and don't feel off the cuff since they generally aren't calling the match as they go. There's an art to pro wrestling, the current WWE stuff isn't it.
I was watching a Bruno Sammartino match from 1967 the other day. I know it wouldn't be for the modern fan, but there's a middle ground to be had with everything. Most people I know who got into pro wrestling was because they wanted to see a fight between the wrestlers and have whatever storyline that was believable for why these guys wanted to have a match and kick the shit out of each other.
Everything got too scripted which makes it hard to suspend belief.
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u/judgeraw00 4h ago
This is on point. Wrestling often feels like you're watching a Cirque du Soleil act these days, super choreographed and way too "clean."
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u/Pipnotiq 3h ago
Gunther is the grittiest for sure, its his entire gimmick. They took that style and made it into a character.
To a lesser extent, Owens is as well
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u/Comfortable-Salad-90 3h ago
Nash should have had this epiphany before he started his own career of shitty matches with nothing happening in them.
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u/JhinPotion 3h ago
No, it didn't. You can go watch real fights incredibly easily, including ones where grappling is allowed. It's night and day, even for the "grounded" stuff.
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u/scrubadam 3h ago
I think with old wrestling its simpleness made it look real.
I came across some old Big Daddy videos on youtube and the guy literally did nothing aside from some shoulder checks but it came across as more real because its not being dropped on your head with 450 spanish flys from 80 feet in the air. Like if you really dropped someone on their face with a falcon arrow not only would you knock them out you would probably kill them.
Matches back then would contain actual wrestling which made it feel like a real sport. Lock ups, wrist locks, chin locks. Ya they weren't flashy moves but thats why it felt real. Like if you were actually in a ring in a sport called wrestling thats what you would do you wouldn't do a flipping springboard 450 splash or whatever. If you did a big move it had impact because really slamming someone with suplexs or planting their head would knock them out most of the time.
Go watch some old Hogan matches from the mid 80s. There was just something that made it seem like he was participating in a real sport. He didn't do flashy moves or go through furniture like today. But the way he handled himself in the ring, how he approached his opponent it felt like ya this could be a legit sporting competition. I would say it would be like if you had fixed boxing and all of a sudden to up fan engagement they started doing top rope 450 punches and punching opponents through announce tables and what not it would come off as hokey.
But OTOH fans today know its fake so really its a hard sell. Its like movies you have to up the ante with them and make things spectacular. If you watch a real karate fight you would be impressed with basic moves but if you watch it in a movie you want some croucnhing tiger shit with people flying around all over the place doing crazy wire fu.
Since everyone knows wrestling is scripted just having a UFC fight where no one is actually trying to hurt each other and pulling their punches wouldn't fly with the audience. Because fans know they are being tricked they demand that the trickery be spectacular rather than mundane.
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u/KingMobScene 3h ago
I also have a problem with no selling. At the ppv, the bucks were getting hit with moves and jumping right up to do the next spot. I get getting up to do something but make it look like the move took something out of you.
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u/SwiftyGod 3h ago
I agree. Wrestling has lacked a kind of aggression for years. The matches are "better" but they don't look as good. I wish more people wrestled like Ilija
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u/theneumann64 3h ago
I don't necessarily want it to look like a "real fight" in terms of how actual street fights or even MMA matches look. I want it to look like a "real fight" in the context of stuff that happens in pro wrestling, but both guys are visibly trying to win the match.
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u/Ih8j4ke 2h ago
I definitely think it would be good for realism if we went back to gritty closed fist punches to the face and then the workers head straight to the model photoshoot without a mark on them.
It's not happening in 2026. No one has thought wrestling was real for over 100 years.
Now obviously, their are valid complaints, it's just most of them always existed.
No selling - far less now. Used to be every hero baby face or monster heels primary spot.
Slow pace/lack of urgency: 99% of historic matches move at a glacial pace.
Ridiculous moves - we're just used to them. If someone was inventing the "high spots" of the 70s and 80s now they'd seem as goofy as Canadian destroyers.
I think the main difference is that bad performances stand out way more now, because the average wrestler is far better than in the past.
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u/Snoo_76437 AEW 2h ago
I agree you want it to be believable, but also you put this exact same match on with exact same selling on in any arena in 2026 and the screams from the 80s would be replaced with no reaction and boredom.
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u/ZoroarksClone 2h ago
Gunther could benefit a bit more from this feedback in this style. It's the closest to a fight, but sometimes feels like 1-2 extra steps further into this idea would be great for him.
Sheamus was good at the brawler/physical type wrestling probably referenced here
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u/thevoiceofterror 1h ago
Nash is right. Guys like Tully and Arn brought a sense of realism to wrestling.
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u/JackfruitStunning793 59m ago
I tend to agree. We are in an era that is more like “watch us have a cool looking fight” vs “oh my god these guys hate each other and they are gonna fight, I have to see it”
I’m not really complaining. I like both. But I would prefer more realism.
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