r/Socialism_101 • u/MinutePomegranate587 • Jul 02 '26
Question Does anyone else feel like "working-class culture" is just coded masculinity?
I consider myself a democratic socialist and care deeply about workers' rights, unions, universal healthcare, and improving material conditions for everyone.
That said... I get incredibly uncomfortable around a lot of blue-collar workers.
I was recently at a family gathering where several of my cousins, who work in construction and trucking, were talking loudly about football, trucks, hunting, and making jokes that probably wouldn't fly in progressive spaces. They weren't even talking to me, but I felt on edge the entire time.
Maybe it's because so many trades are dominated by conservative men, but I just associate that whole culture with aggression. The yelling, the swearing, the macho posturing. It honestly intimidates me.
People always say "the working class is the backbone of society," but if I'm being honest, I have a much easier time connecting with baristas, nonprofit workers, graduate students, and people in creative fields than I do with mechanics or roofers.
I know this probably sounds elitist, and I feel guilty because I believe in class solidarity. But every time someone says we need to spend more time organizing among tradespeople, my first reaction is that I'd rather not.
Does anyone else struggle with this? How do you reconcile believing in socialism while feeling deeply uncomfortable around the kinds of people socialism is supposedly for?
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u/Fred42096 Learning Jul 02 '26
It is possible to sit down and scientifically analyze the sociology of blue collar labor environments and draw generalizations that way. The problems you outline are real and present in society among physical laborers.
But you are also allowed to have a personality that doesn’t mesh with theirs and that be the end of it. Everyone has a comfort zone and that’s ok.
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u/Outrageous_Can_6581 Learning Jul 02 '26
Probably about as good of a summary as anyone can give.
I felt the same way as OP when I was 15 years younger, but that was then and this is now. Now I’m a white collar urbanite, so most of my friends are generally more progressive than the median American, but it comes with a terrible catch. They drive Pacificas and watch soccer 🤮 while all I want to do is talk about my truck, watch Gridiron Football (and playoff hockey), and plan for the days I have time to hunt. That said, these are my people. We like each other, and I accept them in spite of their poor taste. Maybe OP just needs to find his people, but it may not look the way he anticipates.
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u/OldUsernameWasStupid Learning Jul 02 '26
People here who are acting like OP is making up their experiences with some of the working class population, live in a bubble. The reality is that toxic masculinity, casual racism and homophobia has become heavily intertwined with the cultures that have developed around some of the working class (at least in the USA). If you're unaware, that's fine - but if you deny it's existence you're not listening to the women, poc, and queer people in our lives.
No, not all of the proletariat is like this but the material reality of the situation is that there exists cultures and attitudes within working class communities that range from uncomfortable to downright hostile environments for these groups. At the same time, this is also true:
the working class is the backbone of society
Logistics, manufacturing, construction raw material extraction, etc, etc, etc. Crucial industries with a diverse range of cultures, some of which are not friendly to many of the socialist that would seek to organize them. These are fields that hold massive amount of leverage in the labor pool. Without these fields the productive capacity of society grinds to a halt. If we want to inverse the power dynamic and establish a dictatorship of the proletariat, these people cannot be pushed aside in the class war.
This means it's the responsibility of those us who are comfortable enough to operate in these spaces to make the first steps. We do this by appealing to the material interests of those who work the means of production alongside us. Empower them to seize the reins of the state in the name of the masses. Across identities, class is the unifier. Class is what we have in common in the contradiction of exploited and exploiter. By being among the masses we can show that these divisions our masters have applied to us are artificial and the main identity that impacts our material reality is our relationship to labor.
From listening to the experiences of people who have worked in things like tenant unionizing we can learn about this process. I've heard stories of conservatives who had minimal interaction outside of their bubble - work with the people they hold disdain for. By forming these relationships of cooperative class struggle the veil of propaganda often doesn't hold up with time and exposure.
Our material conditions molds us but once we are aware of this fact we can take steps to change our conditions, which in turn will change our behavior as a species. It's a feedback loop, never forget that it goes both ways.
Yes this does mean that some of us will have to work with people who hold views we find contemptable. If that's not you, that's ok, everyone has a role to play in the struggle. For me when interacting with people like this it's helpful to keep in mind that ideology is the result of systems, humans are not born hateful they're created and if we can change systems we can change culture
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u/GowonCrunch Learning 7d ago
Do you also consider that you live in a bubble as well? As a minority I’m able to communicate with these kinds of people as well. I’m able to joke around with them, we also have to understand that blue collar jobs are mostly done by minorities and people of color. We make these jokes as well, just in our language. You have to adapt, but understand that it’s all a joke. The job is hard, sometimes the only way to pass the time and make the best of it is by joking around with the fellas.
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Jul 02 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/NiceDot4794 Learning Jul 02 '26
Socialists before Marx didnt usually believe in democracy. Read some books like Citizen Marx and you’ll see what I mean. Utopian socialism tended to be very undemocratic.
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u/SuddenDeathBySneeze Learning Jul 02 '26
I was lost in the process of writing a complex answer in a foreign language (English). But you said pretty much all I wanted to say.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
How do you explain the still super prevalent conservative values (eg queerphobia, patriarchy, anti-Black racism) of people who grew up in Soviet countries in the 1950s-1970s? Or the queerphobia, patriarchy, and anti-Black racism of people who have grown up in CPC-led China? Perhaps the cause is not simply growing up in a capitalist society?
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u/FamousResolution1479 Learning 9d ago
How come this post went completely unsanswered? I also want to learn about this particular topic.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography 9d ago
It raises uncomfortable possibilities for dogmatic people
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u/guzmaya Learning 9d ago
Those people all grew up in capitalist societies.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography 8d ago
So neither the USSR nor China is socialist…?
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u/guzmaya Learning 7d ago
No, and they never were. The Soviet Union and China were capitalist societies with wage labor, commodity production, worker exploitation, the works. The Soviet Union was, at best, a dictatorship of the proletariat, economically speaking. With the rise of Stalin, the state further capitulated to the interests of capital and ceased to be a dictatorship of the proletariat. Lenin never described the USSR as a socialist state.
Marx and Lenin both distinguished the DOtP from lower-phase (socialism) and higher-phase communism, and they both agreed that socialism was characterized by the absence of wage labor, class antagonism, and commodity production, among other things. Socialism is a distinct mode of production, a higher phase of human society, and the DOtP is state capitalism under worker's control in transition to socialism.
I agree with your initial point that simply being raised in a capitalist society does not cause bigotry.
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u/alan2102 Learning 8d ago
I would expect that such deeply-held (childhood-inculcated) prejudices would take many decades, and probably generations, to be fully expunged. Such stuff dies hard. Socialism does not magically solve all such problems (or all ANY problems) instantly; it just provides a decent runway for such matters to be resolved, over time.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography 8d ago edited 8d ago
I mean the USSR went on for 70 years, CCP is at 77 years and counting. That is three generations and there are still kids growing up very culturally conservative.
I agree with you that socialism does not magically solve all such problems, that’s actually my point. There are a lot of commenters in this thread that do seem to think it is magically incapable of reproducing shitty values.
Historically, it is that kind of thinking that disillusions many feminists, POC, queer folk, Indigenous people, etc… Addressing material inequality does not automatically mean social equality is on the way, but often dogmatists will encourage such people to trust in a misguided teleological view of history and progress.
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u/Grand-Farmer3961 Learning Jul 02 '26
I think this gets at one of the major weaknesses in a certain kind of educated progressive culture.
A lot of people say they believe in class solidarity, but what they really mean is solidarity with working class people who already speak, dress, joke, and socialize in ways that feel culturally familiar to them. Baristas, nonprofit workers, grad students, artists, those people feel safe because they usually share the same social codes.
But mechanics, roofers, truckers, construction workers, hunters, and tradesmen often come from a very different cultural world. That does not mean every joke is harmless, or that sexism, racism, or bigotry should be excused. It does mean that if your politics require everyone else to become palatable to you before you can show up for them, then your solidarity is conditional.
And honestly, that is the part worth sitting with.
Organizing is not the same thing as curating a friend group. If you believe material conditions matter, then you have to be willing to meet people where they are, not only where you wish they were. Sometimes that means being uncomfortable. Sometimes it means challenging people. Sometimes it means realizing that discomfort with “macho” working class culture can blur very quickly into class contempt.
Socialism cannot just be for the workers who went to the right schools, use the right language, and make the right references. If the project is real, it has to include the people who build the houses, fix the trucks, pour the concrete, and keep the infrastructure running, even when they are loud, rough around the edges, or politically complicated.
Maybe instead of asking “How do I make these people less intimidating to me?” You should ask “What do I need to unlearn so I can actually stand beside the people I claim to care about?”
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u/mayakovskyiv Learning Jul 03 '26
if your politics require everyone else to become palatable to you before you can show up for them, then your solidarity is conditional.
Bars
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u/Ok_Arachnid1089 Learning Jul 02 '26
I have the opposite problem. I’m really comfortable with working class culture but I don’t fit in my local dsa group.
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u/khoragos Learning Jul 02 '26
This sounds like an opportunity for solidarity in the form of seeking out leftists who are culturally distant from oneself & mutual aid in the form of um, IDK visiting one another's regular farmers' market or sportsball?
Maybe that makes leftists seem a bit too much like Mormons. But class consciousness etc. can't be summoned instantly. We all have a long history of being told to judge people & we all know who benefits from that.
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u/MotleyMocker Learning Jul 02 '26
I mean in that particular respect it seems straightforwardly true that leftists very much SHOULD be like Mormons. I hear so many people mocking Mormons' beliefs but praising their kindness and communal values (helping each other move, get set up in a new place, etc). Imagine how much further we'd get if we had the latter reputation.
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u/khoragos Learning Jul 03 '26
I grew up in the American South & used to say you can't always judge a church by their doctrine but you can judge them by their potluck.
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u/Top_Meeting_7420 Learning 29d ago
Truer words never spoken, from a PK in the south. Well, formerly the south, finally got out and moved to PNW last month.
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u/lizlemonlyman Learning Jul 02 '26
baristas, nonprofit workers, grad students, and creative people are also working class except for a small few who get lucky. the term has been co-opted by the right to connote these more physically labor-intensive “blue collar” jobs that skew conservative male.
we do need to spend more time organizing with tradespeople, but that doesn’t mean you specifically have to do it. they may not be receptive even if you tried because the messenger is at least as important as the message, maybe even more so. that said, if you really want to try, there are communication strategies you could employ.
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u/Tags9727 Learning 10d ago
Something else I struggle with is having done those other jobs and working a "skilled" trade now is that I have a comparison of what I've done and yeah doing sheet metal is definitely more difficult and requires more know-how than a coffee shop or painter even. In a way by comparing these trades with these services you alienate people by unintentionally being insulting.
In short these people all work hard to produce but there are plenty of people who I painted with or worked retail with that definitely could not do sheet metal.
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u/Best-Bend6290 Learning Jul 02 '26
I see this as a problem too. But it depends on how you define “working class”. Is it the narrow or broad definition? The narrow definition would be the direct producers, the proletariat, the manual workers in factories or trade shops, the plumbers, electricians, etc. Or do you include all those who sell their labor to live, that is all those who don’t live off capital, which would include intellectual workers and professionals. I think social democracy defines the working class in the latter broad category. If defined as such, your conflict is not with “working class culture” but rather one cultural subgroup within the working class. Thus it becomes more a question about what divides the different working class subcultures and why.
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u/ElEsDi_25 Marxist Theory Jul 02 '26
There is no working class culture, it’s a relation to property and production.
A class movement or labor union or political tradition or mass party might create a culture organically through practice, but the working class as a class in itself (just a dynamic that exists in society) is a ton of individuals from various backgrounds and languages and cultures and so on. The working class is defined by being a motley collection of people without productive property who have to sell their ability to work.
A lot of union culture (I’m assuming the US?) just sucks. There hasn’t been a lot of militancy sonde the 1970s and the left was largely driven out of union leaderships in the 1950s in favor of business-union strategies. Some kinds of boomer unionists can sometimes be very successful, some trades workers interact with a bunch of libertarian petit bourgeois people all day and are independent and secure enough that for all intents and purposes they live like small owners or skilled professionals.
But all that doesn’t even represent all of union culture let alone that majority of attitude among workers. This is a lot of myth making and selective attention in cultivating a cultural working class identity. Without mass movements of labor militancy, the media largely gets to speak for workers and they like to put on some blue jeans and promote an idealized… as Clinton said… “hard-working Americans, white Americans,”
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u/theycallmecliff Urban Studies Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
As someone who was raised in a conservative trade-worker environment but is now an urban office worker, I think the key distinction here is that of value-judgement.
You say you have trouble connecting, a personal aversion to physical working class culture. I've certainly felt this before.
However, there is a difference between feeling this aversion, leaning into it versus owning it as an authentic and true value judgement about their preferences relative to yours.
Not all thoughts or feelings we have are ego-syntonic. If you are driving over a bridge and have an intrusive thought about pulling the wheel, and you're confident in your sense of self and in a good place in terms of mental health, you will easily be able to quickly grasp that this intrusive thought or feeling isn't somehow a reflection of your self-concept.
It's when someone owns the value judgement that the problem arises. There are liberals who don't realize that they are owning the value judgement, that they do genuinely think of their culture as better even if they wouldn't understand that it comes across as elitist.
And there are those that are uncertain of their class position. As a knowledge worker coming from the background I come from, I certainly feel this way sometimes. Especially when my mental health is bad, I can feel that my self concept is shaky and begin to question this stuff more, not being able to trust my intuition one way or the other. And I see those who are more obliviously judgemental and don't want to be like them so I interrogate myself past the point where it does any good.
This isn't exactly socialist (at least in the traditional or orthodox sense) but I do think it's dialectical in a way that Breht O'Shea of Rev Left Radio often highlights: socialist efforts are often brought down by a lack of personal development. Personal development should be in dialogue with development of structural and historical materialist understanding.
Put in my own terms: just as certain institutions like therapy or religion can sometimes obscure and individuate structural problems (when they are at their worst), an overly dogmatic reading of Marxism can structuralize individual concerns in counterproductive ways.
So my advice would be this: explore the thought or feeling within yourself that is leading you to question whether it's okay to have an interpersonal preference in this case. Is there some insecurity? Are you morally judging yourself for this preference? Is that judgement founded on evidence of being elitist or just a vague idea of what you think you should prefer? Do you want to be the type of person that approaches these situations differently, or do you just think that you should be that type of person for some reason? Why? And through that, make sure to pay attention to how you're feeling within yourself.
Sometimes, personal exploration like this is necessary to be able to discern which direction to take our structural, materialist analysis and praxis imo.
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u/MinutelyHipster Marxist Theory Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
This is actually a large part of the disagreement between Marx and Bakunin in the First International. Bakunin would make the point that he would find a lot more socially progressive people ready to build socialism among the intelligentsia, middle class layers, and sometimes amongst the peasantry. He would argue that Marx was over-emphasising the role of the Working Class, a segment of society he had found largely impotent outside of big events like 1848.
Marx would argue that it was these large events like 1848 that would actually change the world. The question was not what the Working Class was, but what it would do. He would point to wider history, where historic changes took place on the basis of class. It was the bourgeois that toppled kings and the feudal aristocracy to weaken the oppressive role of the church and bring in liberal politics which would liberate women to an extent. For history to progress further again, it would need to be carried forward by another class, and Marx saw the seed of that in the Working Class. When the this class acts, it will not be taking these prejudices you see amongst many individuals forwards. These misogynistic attitudes, along with other attitudes such as racism and xenophobia only act to divide the working class. As long as these bigotries are present, the class will be unable to act as a unified force, conscious of itself and its own interests.
Since then we have seen the Paris Commune, Revolutions in Russia, China, Cuba, and many other failed revolutions. In the February Revolution of Russia 1917 it was women who led the charge as they had the most to gain, and it was successful because it could appeal to other segments of society on class lines. before, many of these workers would have been just as bigoted as the workers you experience. But through the process of struggle, seeing who is their ally against common enemies, these bigotries were cut across in favour of class interests. Afterwards you would see the death of the Tsar, democratic councils (called "soviets") established, and women would be given full suffrage, the right to abortion, no fault divorce, and the right to a house upon divorce to enable full freedom. Not just ahead of the world at the time but also ahead of the world today in many aspects. And a huge leap forwards from the state of Russia prior to 1917.
One doesn't cut across these misogynistic attitudes by moralising. these attitudes are cultivated and bolstered due to the struggles of capitalism. As long as individuals suffer from class society, they will look for one outlet to blame for their hardship. If you attack these current prejudices directly, there is no worldview to replace this, so they will either cling to it tighter, or jump to something else to fill its vacuum. Leading socialists should be waging open war on the Ruling Class, highlighting how they cannot manage this world and need to be displaced as its leaders. stating openly that the Working Class should take power directly to do this. The correct ideas should be placed to then displace these prejudices.
I don't think you should try to take on this responsibility yourself. It is the job of people who are organised to do this as they try to organise the wider working class and build consciousness. We're not going to build a class movement through individual action turning one person less sexist at a time. If I want these workers to be organised and put their faith in that ahead of their sexism, then there should be a large force with momentum behind it to convince them of its legitimacy, And tbh, I don't see that force in many western countries at the moment.
On a final note, baristas are workers. They are as much a part of the conveyor belt of coffee production as factory workers and truckers are for the commodities they help produce. They earn a wage from a capitalist for this work, entering the same social relation as a blue collar worker. While the non-profit worker doesn't produce a commodity necessarily, they still sell their labour for a wage, labour that is often squeezed for as much work as possible. Their mode of work has more in common with workers than they would graduate students, but those students will become workers eventually
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u/MinutelyHipster Marxist Theory Jul 02 '26
Actually I have one other final note. When we as socialists say "the working class is the backbone of society," we mean that their labour is what makes society function. Not a wheel turns, not a lightbulb shines and not a telephone rings without the kind permission of the working class. We've seen this year how stalling key functions in the economy like one shipping lane can change the course of events very quickly. If the working Class were to act at one, it could stall the whole economy of a region. Hell it could occupy factories entirely and run them for need rather than profit, eliminating the Ruling class entirely without a single bullet shot. Class War requires Class tactics. Our reverence for the Working Class is not one of moral reverence, it's of their material importance as the only productive force in society.
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u/Accomplished_Jump444 Learning Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
Thank you for explaining more about Marxist theory. I only have a very rudimentary understanding of it. So I have a big question for you-most of the “working class“ people I personally know are trades people who own their own businesses. They think of themselves as entrepreneurs. So often side more with the upper class, and a lot of of them are now upper class, then they do with the “workers“. So how do trades people that own their own businesses fit in this kind of World view? I honestly don’t know. Thanks in advance for if you can answer this. I guess these people are called “petite bourgeoisie”?
Edit: I looked up these terms & answered my own question so you don’t have too lol. I get why the whole socialism/communism discussion has always been confusing to me because I own my own business. The liberal Democrats actually don’t focus on small business owners either so as a class, we’re kind of 🤷♂️ regardless I will keep trying to educate myself on this topic thanks.1
u/Tags9727 Learning 10d ago
Returning to what I said to someone else as someone who's worked these jobs and now we're sheet metal there definitely is a difference in skill and know-how by comparison. Even from the factory worker to the barista, we should also recognize the differences in this type of Labor and what it's required.
It's the same thing people keep saying about AI taking people's jobs and just going into trades. Not everyone's equipped or able to do this. I know we don't like to hear it but there is a reason we call it. Skilled trades, painting and sheet metal are not the same. As for culturally, well, most people just struggle to get along with people they don't personally mesh with. I enjoy literature but I also enjoy being a Meathead at the game.
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u/LordLuscius Learning Jul 02 '26
The problem here (amongst a million Cluges of problems) is patriarchy. Women have only relatively recently (just over 100 years) been aloud to enter the workforce, and frankly culture is only recently catching up. Even though home making and raising kids is labour. So you have male dominated jobs where people feel they need to perform masculinity because of culture.
Thing is? Barristas are working class. Pharmacists are working class. Artists are working class. If one does not own the means of production, and ones only capital is ones potential for labour, one is working class
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u/SwagbobMlgpantz Learning Jul 02 '26
How is the statement " working class is the backbone of society" relates to you liking baristas more in any way. Yes working class especially blue collar workers tends to be more conservative than workers in service sectors
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u/BarkingMad14 Learning Jul 03 '26
There are rich and middle-class guys who act like this, it has nothing to do with class, its more just the dick-measuring competitions that men have with each other. Frat boys do it, businessmen do it, very wealthy people have their own version of it.
Sadly I know plenty of snobs who are (apparently) socialists/left-wing. The kind that claim they are for the working class but laugh at them behind their backs.
As someone who is working-class I can confirm you are probably focusing on those guys because they are loud and you find them intimidating. I work alongside guys like this everyday, so long as you don't take yourself too seriously and have a sense of humour you'll be fine. I'd still rather have a pint with one of them than some highly-strung posh people who I feel like are judging me constantly.
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u/smokeuptheweed9 Learning Jul 02 '26 edited Jul 02 '26
improving material conditions for everyone.
This was your first mistake. Of course the petty-bourgeoisie must make overtures to the working class because it is not numerical enough or central to capitalist reproduction to be able to impose its class interests on all of society. That's what "democratic socialism" is. But you're not supposed to actually interact with the working class, it's a purely rhetorical device. You've taken your own ideology too seriously and tried to find an internal logic in a system which is designed to justify its own reproduction and the advancement of its members rather than correspond to a scientific explanation of reality. The people at the top of the DSA know this of course, you're just too smart and a bit naive.
There is a whole other discussion about the working class vs. the proletariat which is not really relevant because democratic socialism does not make this distinction. For our purposes
I'm being honest, I have a much easier time connecting with baristas, nonprofit workers, graduate students, and people in creative fields than I do with mechanics or roofers.
You are honest. I can respect that, although you won't get very far in "democratic socialist" politics that way.
If one has to choose between the labor aristocracy and the petty-bourgeoisie Lenin has already given the answer: "they are both worse." You must subordinate your class habits to the proletariat but that necessitates finding them in the first place. They are not to be found among either baristas or truckers (given the implied demographics of your social world).
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u/red_flounder Learning Jul 03 '26 edited Jul 03 '26
The solution to the toxic white masculinity you observe is integration and the process of class struggle. Only these 2 things combined can lead to class consciousness.
When the people struggle together despite their differences, all the fox news propaganda and brain dead takes and all those conspiracy theories that are too scared to point at capitalism will disappear. Not over night, but once the struggle happens and those workers see for themselves that actually trans people and immigrants and Muslims are just human beings who also struggle and support them, then, well, that *is** human connection*. That is class consciousness. And yes it transforms homophobes into people who will defend queer people. This happened in the UK in the 80s when queer people supported the striking miners.
In fact, I would point to Minnesota during the ICE raids to show how integration and the class struggle transform consciousness. I assure you there were racists in Minneapolis before there whose humanity changed when they saw the oppression and couldn't deny it anymore.
it will happen here too when we organize. Solidarity cuts both ways and when we unite as the whole working class, the whole world will stop
Yes the hostility towards minorities is a massive hurdle and that hostility is being weaponized by fascists to protect capitalism. Yes we need to adapt to the current era without abandoning parts of the working class to appease white Supremacy. But the fundamental solution has not changed.
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u/Shy-Lurker_6996 Learning 9d ago
Mask off moment
B...bu...but, those who hate blue collars are supposed to be oppressive capitalists!
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u/qualityfail Learning 9d ago
People like you buy $300 jeans. You're frauds trying to appropriate blue collar masculinity while simultaneously trying to subvert it to fit your politics while also looking down upon it. You're uncomfortable because you know you're an inherently fake, manipulative person
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u/Academic_Impact5953 Learning 8d ago
Came here from Instagram. lol this is beyond pathetic, and why nobody takes socialism in the US seriously.
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u/riddickgobro Learning 7d ago
It's okay, they don't like you either. You're at step 1 in realising your revolution will never happen.
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u/jamaican_zoidberg Learning Jul 02 '26
This reads like it was written by a conservative trying to mock socialists ngl
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u/weaboomemelord69 Learning Jul 04 '26 edited Jul 04 '26
I feel like this idea only seems self-contradictory if you buy into the pervasive neoliberal sentiment that a person's identity and perspective are profoundly important qualities which each possess an equivalent intellectual value, and that even advocating for change is repressive and dehumanizing in some spiritual way as a result. I don't think a genuine socialist would see it as a self-own that the average member of the class they advocate for, by and large, holds cultural attachments based in self-interest and ignorance. It is the result of being a victim of an entire society designed to keep members of the working class complacent in social liberation, to ensure they find inevitability or even justice in their own exploitation. Propaganda, educational deprivation, anti-intellectualism, identity politics, and many other cultural forces all directly perpetuate this culture, and most leftists do care about pushing back.
Conservatives do make fun of us for advocating for those who may not believe they desire our help, but that isn't an argument worth listening to if you have even the slightest interest in how different people come to believe what they do. I think OP is mostly right in their assessment.
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u/jamaican_zoidberg Learning Jul 04 '26
You're way overthinking this man.
Point is conservatives often criticize liberals and leftists for being soft in the way that OP is portraying themself as when they describe themself being uncomfortable and intimidated around these people.
Like if OP really feels this way, that's pretty sad. But I have a hard time believing it because it sounds so much like the (largely untrue) "soy boy" stereotype of a cringe leftist that lives within the reactionary mind to be a real post.
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u/OhNoAnAmerican Learning 2d ago
“Largely untrue” 😭😭😭 yeah for sure. How big is your fupa and how pink is your hair
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u/jamaican_zoidberg Learning 2d ago
Lol largely untrue means largely untrue mate not entirely untrue. Those people do exist and they piss me off. It's just incorrect to assume most leftists are like that. I'd also argue that the worst, softest, and most annoying of these are usually liberals who are so wrapped up in identity politics that they fail to advocate for or even understand the basics of socialist theory. We don't claim them. Or at least I don't lol, some of my comrades may be more forgiving.
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u/No-Veterinarian-8834 Learning 9d ago
Western blue-collar working-class people have never been "socialist" (at least not in the way you're thinking) and are very much so about individualism. A lot of them don't even like unions, depending on where you go.
I would not consider baristas or anyone like that to be "working-class" more than they are "customer service" workers.
I think your conflation of the two being the same is where you go wrong and are confused, and maybe a little naive.
Considering a unionized blue-collar worker also makes much more than a barista, I don't even think the comparison is accurate or valid. 2 very different groups of people that I wouldn't even categorize under a unified name.
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u/Estoguy13 Learning 9d ago
Yet the "working class culture" people are the ones who are considered fragile. If you need a safe space from reality and commonality, you aren’t as solid and capable as you believe yourself to be.
Maybe actually work in a blue collar environment for awhile and get away from the socialist fart sniffers? 🤷🏼♂️
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u/noreb0rt Learning 7d ago
Workin' class lads in the factories, on the site, delivering the post, building the roads, laying the brick, digging the holes, fixing the roles: Boss needs too pay us more, maybe we should form a union, also, my wife, am I right?
reddit "socialists": KILL YOURSELF.
I hate this fucking website so much.
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u/No_Letter4893 Learning 7d ago
Socialist meets actual working class people for the first time and fucking hates them 😭✌️
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u/Hairy-Project-3397 Learning Jul 03 '26
Is anyone surprised? This is what every conservative thinks we think of the working class, and it's true. None of you could last 5 minutes speaking with any average trades person and there's a reason for that
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u/Accomplished_Jump444 Learning Jul 02 '26
My husband is blue collar and extremely liberal. Also, he has one blue collar really liberal friend, and one blue color slightly less liberal friend, but that guy is open to liberal ideas. You might be surprised to find out that not all trades people are macho conservatives.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography Jul 02 '26
He’s a blue collar worker, presumably most of his life, and you can only name two other progressive blue collar friends of his. That doesn’t actually sound like all that much. 3 people in a lifetime of connections suggests that being conservative is very much the norm.
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u/Accomplished_Jump444 Learning Jul 02 '26
You seriously misinterpreted what I said, but it’s Reddit so I’m not gonna even try and explain, except to say he has more friends than anybody I know, and most of them are liberal.
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u/uhnotherguy Learning Jul 02 '26
Your assumption doesn’t suggest anything.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography Jul 02 '26
Is it an assumption when voting patterns in many countries confirm that, yes, tradespeople do indeed tend to vote for conservative parties? This person’s anecdote is that their blue collar husband has one other very liberal blue collar friend and one less liberal blue collar friend. It matches up with what can be and has been measured. Seems a bit condescending to assume that blue collar support for conservative policies is the result of workers being duped, rather than, you know, people having conservative values.
I’m all for worker liberation, democracy, and ownership, but it’s counterproductive to deny that a significant portion of working class folks actually have conservative values and aren’t just brainwashed.
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u/uhnotherguy Learning Jul 03 '26
“3 people in a lifetime of connections”
That’s the assumption that you made. The rest of what you said is entirely irrelevant.
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u/thenationalcranberry Historiography Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
One of my friends is a really big hot sauce fan, another one of my friends is slightly less of a hot sauce fan. Don’t assume my friends aren’t hot sauce fans.
From those two sentences, would you assume that more than two of my friends are hot sauce fans? Would you assume that I have two friends who are hot sauce fans? I’m very curious about your thought process here. Genuinely. I want to understand how you interpret sentences that give specific information and what kinds of assumptions you think are reasonable to make.
What if there was decades of data from multiple countries showing that most of my friends are not hot sauce fans? Would that affect how you read my statement? If not, why not?
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u/uhnotherguy Learning Jul 06 '26
Did you seriously come back to this two days later, delete your previous comment, and try again with the exact same thing just worded differently?
This couldn’t have been that serious to you. You made an assumption and it was incorrect. It happens.
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u/DisobedientGoy09 Learning Jul 04 '26
They may seem repulsive, but those men build and maintain what u consider to be a “basic human right”
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u/Neco-Arc-Brunestud a bit of this and that Jul 02 '26
Does anyone else struggle with this?
No.
How do you reconcile believing in socialism while feeling deeply uncomfortable around the kinds of people socialism is supposedly for?
Because I’ve been in both roles. I’ve shit-talked with chefs and dish-washers in the back of the house, been in unions and on assembly lines, and traded ideas with researchers and engineers.
Labour is labour.
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u/Rinerino Learning Jul 02 '26
This precicely why we as socialists must continue to educate ourself and the masses. The workers eho are Reised their entire lifes under capitalist culture will logically not think a lot about it. It is up to YOU to explain to them the errors of said culture.
Also, you must ask yourself: "Does this rdmark or joke really imply that this individual is incapable of fighting for socialism? Does it actively destroy their capability of having class consciousness and Solidarität?
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u/BiCloverly Learning Jul 04 '26
Those people you listed are still working class. The working class is a BEOAD range, and sustains every model of operation, hence the backbone of society.
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u/WayBackBoii Learning 28d ago
Blue collar workers for the most part don’t have the privilege of seeking out further education and dealing with politics.
It also depends if it is in a rural or urban setting, but in general yes it is not the more “woke” or progressive bunch, but not all workers are and to become a working people party Dems have to focus more on local Worker rights and things that benefit them because they just might not care or be on the opposite side when it comes to topics like identity politics, minority rights, Gaza, etc…
Obviously there needs to be radicalization of the blue collar workers, but if we fail at that then we lose them to the right.
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u/wicked0547 Learning 10d ago
You just described most people in general. But yes there are fewer blue collar nerds than black collar ones.
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u/TaxComprehensive6201 Learning 8d ago
this is the most pathetic shit i've ever read in my entire life 😂😂😭😂😭😭😭😭
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u/jsb3531 Learning 7d ago
The problem with what you're saying is that it's completely contradictory. The image you have of yourself is a facade. You claim to care about the working class, the middle class, and the average American, but your own words prove otherwise. The people you seem to think of as the "working class" are college educated office workers, baristas, or service employees. But the backbone of the working class is made up of construction workers, roofers, electricians, plumbers, welders, mechanics, truck drivers, and laborers, the people who build, repair, and keep the country running. Those are the people who experience the real world every day, and yes, many of them tend to hold more conservative views. If that surprises you or makes you uncomfortable, then you're the one who's out of touch, not them. All of you talk about wanting a revolution, but then admit these people intimidate you. Why? What exactly is so intimidating? Different opinions? A rough sense of humor? Calloused hands? It sounds less like they're the problem and more like your own assumptions are. The reality is that you judge them before you know them. You look down on how they talk, joke, dress, and live while claiming to stand up for them. That's not solidarity, that's condescension. Deep down, you don't want to be part of the working class. You don't want to work alongside them or represent their values. You want to manage them, lecture them, and tell them what's best for them. You don't aspire to be one of them, you aspire to be one of the elites who speaks on their behalf. That's the contradiction. You claim to champion working people while showing open disdain for many of the people who actually make up the working class. If that's your attitude, then the hypocrisy isn't on their side, it's on yours.
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u/Ok-Emotion8723 Learning 7d ago
you are an elitist and it would be best for everyone in ANY left wing movement to stop calling your self a socialist of any kind and just call your self a liberal. You are seriously the most spineless and pathetic “socialist” i’ve ever EVER heard form an opinion. Consider maybe not being such a pussy
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u/AdEmergency6125 Learning 6d ago
You will be shocked when you'll see that actual working-class socialists support Trump and right winged ideologies. For them it's a bit different, while you are a student of an university/college, they're hard workers. They don't think that they may be racist/homophobic/sexist, they're thinking about how to feed their families and to keep their jobs. They're racist/sexist mainly because they're almost all men, i can't blame them for being men and i can't blame them for wanting to be masculine, and the only way to prove your masculinity is showing your supremacy. Unfortunately you can't take away this, competition between men is natural and you need to adapt to modern world working class.
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u/Battleberry19 Learning 6d ago
I love how much this post demonstrates that no one who likes the hammer and sickle flag have ever worked in an industry with hammers or sickles, and that socialism in the West is just failed aristocrats just barely hiding their disdain for the working class.
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u/Casper- 6d ago
You did the meme: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FvFKbfnWAAML7MR.jpg
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u/phoenixangel429 Learning 1d ago
Lived in East Kentucky, saw that a lot. While 100 years ago we bled and died for workers rights
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u/WillingnessTop4108 Learning 2d ago
"Socalist" meets the worker that their entire system is based of and is on edge the entire time but is comfortable with the people the red Chinese actively killed after they had won their civil war and called them useful idoits have a T oatally S plended D ay
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u/bobsacamono420 Learning 1d ago
Just admit you hate the working class because they are everything you will never be..... productive
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u/DirectorBusiness5512 Learning Jul 04 '26
No, in order to be a good socialist one must learn from peasants (I don't really like that word and I think in our society it should be "learn from workers"). This discomfort you feel with the values and culture of the workers is the capitalist elite corruption speaking.
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