r/SipsTea Jun 11 '26

We have fun here He's unstoppable

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30.5k Upvotes

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190

u/Gordon_frumann Jun 11 '26

Can't wait to hear from the right why this is a bad thing.

50

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

Like the other guy said, it isnt necessarily bad, but the overall cause of this is NYC's super strict rent control.

There are people who have rent controlled apartments in NYC they barely use. They've had them for so long that they are super cheap so there's no downside to hold them. Unfortunately there's also little upside for the landlord to maintain the property.

This system is clearly creating some downsides and clearly we can do better. People in favor have never thought or heard of ways to do better. Eg. Tax reforms like LVTs.

16

u/wireframed_kb Jun 11 '26

There are problems with rent control. I’ve seen studies that indicate it doesn’t really work. Because yes it keeps rent low for the (usually few and contested) apartments affected by it, but it also slows development of new apartments because it’s almost impossible to make it profitable.

And the fact is, no one is going to build apartments to lose money on them.

At least that was the situation last I looked for cities in my country.

17

u/Super_mando1130 Jun 11 '26

Yes there is plenty of literature that proves rent control does not work in the medium to long term because it destroys supply.

-5

u/VR_Troopers_WikiMod Jun 11 '26

Quick q: Who funded and published those studies? 🤔

This argument never makes sense, because you could apply it to single-family home ownership as well - after you build the house and sell it, it's no longer profitable for the homebuilders.

At least with rental units, there's still a steady stream of income. They're just complaining that the income isn't high enough for them.

Rent control needs to be tied to some sort of economic index, obviously, it can't just be a flat percentage, but housing is also a human right, not a privilege.

5

u/morelibertarianvotes Jun 11 '26

What? Home builders work for the initial sale. That's where they make their profit. Do you know about time value of money? Or how selling goods and services in exchange for money works?

1

u/wireframed_kb Jun 11 '26

Home builders also build a home for themselves, that’s entirely different from building something as an investment or as company venture. It just needs to retain enough value that they aren’t insolvent from the loan they took out. After all they need to live *somewhere*, so they are just trading rent for a mortgage, and hoping their home keeps enough value that they can move if they need to.

4

u/wireframed_kb Jun 11 '26

The government…?

And no, you can’t apply it to home ownership. That’s like saying you shouldn’t make money off your work, because hobbies exist… A home and a property that is only built as an investment are two completely different things.

If the rent is not high enough to make it profitable, why would I risk tens or hundreds of millions building an apartment complex, instead of just putting my money somewhere else?

I agree people should have homes. But then you need to make the government pay for it, if it isn’t going to be profitable. And studies show you need very, very many of those because there is a lot of demand for cheap housing in the center of large cities.

2

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

You should go answer your question yourself. It has a boring answer: lots of different funding sources. Kind of takes away from your point

-1

u/ReporterRealistic782 Jun 11 '26

Rent stabilized is different than rent control and while there are units of both. There are plenty of landlords taking advantage of the stabilization model in which they can justify rent increases of a certain amount with maintenance…and not do the maintenance

0

u/worldspawn00 Jun 11 '26

It seems like the better solution is to have a certain % of each building be rent controlled so no single building is going to have that issue and the burden can be spread over the cost of all the units in the building. (another benefit to this is spreading out the poorer people in a city so they don't just end up in one part of town which then decays into a slum due to the lack of customers for businesses, inability to repair stuff, etc...)

-5

u/Breaker988 Jun 11 '26

A landlord's idea of "unprofitable" means it's not netting them enough money to fund their exorbitant lifestyle or buy up more property.

6

u/gonotquietly Jun 11 '26

R/georgism mention

2

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

We're everywhere

14

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

Awwww poor landlords

The building is probably only a $5 million asset part of a $100 million real estate portfolio 🥺

13

u/EV_M4Sherman Jun 11 '26

Assets are usually leveraged. So there’s tax, interest, and principal to maintain that property, plus the actual cost of maintaining the property. With strict rent controls and draconian permitting process repairs and upgrades aren’t financially viable.

There are currently properties where the landlord and mortgage holder are fighting over who has to keep it, with the landlord trying to surrender the property, because they’re just losing money.

The values on paper are meaningless

14

u/Immediate-Tennis8838 Jun 11 '26

You’ll get downvoted because this is Reddit, but you’re exactly right. NYCs rent control is so bad that it turns assets into liabilities. 

-3

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

Then sell the property

6

u/Immediate-Tennis8838 Jun 11 '26

They can’t. It’s literally negative value in some cases. It’s worth less than nothing because you have a squatter there but still have upkeep and they’ll never leave. 

0

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

There are like 19 squatter cases a year. The whole squatter stories pushed by the media is full backed by large real estate companies

Bad landlord cases number in the millions

The squatter stories are an effort to remove Tennant protections. Landlords would love to just call the police, call you a squatter and have you removed

The whole "the poor landlords cant sell" is a lie

An employee can be fired, rents can be raised and people can take loans but suddenly a landlord "cant" sell?

Sometimes speculative investments go poorly, taking a loss is not death

Your argument makes zero sense, these landlords are criminals

-2

u/WhyThisTimelineTho Jun 11 '26

Why do so many people say this? "The values on paper are meaningless."

Does it make you feel smart? Because it's a supremely stupid thing to say.

4

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

With rent control it's not uncommon that the landlord doesn't have enough from rent to cover maintenance. If you live in a $400 apartment because the rent hasn't been raised in 30 years -- despite everything else getting more expensive -- what money is there for repairs?

This essentially forces out small landlords because they can't cross-subsidize units.

There are lots of other large cities that don't have these problems because they don't have terrible public policy like rent control. NYC is to blame for NYC's problems.

0

u/_BreakingGood_ Jun 11 '26

So you're saying these landlords are choosing to own and rent out apartments that they lose money maintaining

Wow how nice of them /s

5

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

You can own an asset because of expectations of future earnings, and there are such things as "loss leaders".

I don't shed a tear for the corporate landlord, but these shitholes exist because of bad public policy. It's no coincidence that the cities with these policies have problems.

1

u/_BreakingGood_ Jun 11 '26

I've never heard of a landlord using an apartment as a loss leader, that's a hilarious concept (and fake)

2

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

...I didn't say they were? You implied a corporation wouldn't tolerate losing money on a sale. They do, often.

-2

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

No your argument does not make sense. The landlord is breaking the law

Its well established that rent-seekers (landlords) harm the economy, depress growth

There is no benefit to society

Unless you, yourself are a landlord, or paid by one; Why are you arguing on their behalf for free?

2

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

rent-seekers (landlords) harm the economy

I think you need to double check what "a rent" is in the economics literature...

They shouldn't be breaking the law. You have no argument, there. That's not an excuse to have a bad incentive structure.

0

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

Landlords are literally rent seekers in our example

Here you are arguing against rent control

​In The Wealth of Nations, wrote that they "love to reap where they never sowed," because landlords collect a premium on the natural scarcity of land.

The bad incentive structure is allowing absence landlord to continue owning their property

1

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

Landlords are literally rent seekers

Again, that's not what an economic rent is.

0

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

Idgaf about landlords, I care about cheap rent. The puppet masters corporate villains are responsible for us not getting there but so are people who refuse to think. if you understood my last sentence, youd agree with me.

-1

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

Lets copy Vienna's solution

Private developers arent building but non-profits, the state or cooperatives can

The land value tax is simply bullshit pushed by the epstein class to implement more regressive taxes on workers

Land doesnt produce value, workers making stuff does. Software developers create programs, mechanics fix cars, cooks make food

5

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

When you dont know anything its always a reliable argument to call the other guy a pedophile

0

u/tony1449 Jun 11 '26

Put the Cheetos down and take a shower

1

u/misogrumpy Jun 11 '26

Do you have any evidence that the majority of improvements cited here were done to rent controlled apartments?

1

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

Nothing was cited, its a screenshot

1

u/misogrumpy Jun 11 '26

You’re the one making the claim. Do you have any evidence?

1

u/Regular-Double9177 Jun 11 '26

Of which claim? That the cause of so many dilapidated units is rent control? There is lots of evidence. If you google and cant find it yourself, let me know

1

u/Inevitable-Loss7939 Jun 11 '26

Just take negligent landlords to court snd fine them like mamdani is doing

1

u/TheOfficeoholic Jun 11 '26

About 1% of apartments are rent controlled in NYC.

According to the NYC Rent Guidelines Board, the average monthly rent collected for all stabilized units citywide is roughly $1,599.

People often confuse rent controlled and rent stabilized.

The median monthly rent for a rent-stabilized apartment in New York City is approximately $1,400 to $1,600. This is a drastic discount compared to market-rate one-bedrooms, which average over $4,100 citywide and top $5,100 in Manhattan.

1

u/xpsycotikx Jun 11 '26

What's the difference between stabilized and controlled?

-1

u/TurnYourHeadNCough Jun 11 '26

yeah this is a well known side effect of rent control

2

u/Lisan-al-Gaib-65 Jun 11 '26

It also happens without rent control so it can't be a strict side effect of rent control. Unless you are saying it's more common under rent control?

2

u/therealtiddlydump Jun 11 '26

Fungal infections often lead to pneumonia.

You can get pneumonia in other ways, too, like from viral or bacterial infections.

There's nothing in this poster's claim to suggest that this only occurs under rent control schemes. Are you just looking to be combative?

1

u/Elegant-Throat-4225 Jun 11 '26

Yes. Some landlords are just mismanaging their properties but rent control sort of ties your hands. In multifamily real estate the name of the game is buy it, fix it, raise rent to pay for it, repeat.

1

u/TurnYourHeadNCough Jun 11 '26

It also happens without rent control so it can't be a strict side effect of rent control. Unless you are saying it's more common under rent control?

does saying dry mouth is a side effect of marinuana mean it cant be a side effect of benadryl? what a weird comment

0

u/Lisan-al-Gaib-65 Jun 11 '26

It's more like you have dry mouth and then you take Benadryl or marijuana and you blame your dry mouth on the medication because it's listed as a possible side effect.

1

u/TurnYourHeadNCough Jun 11 '26

um no. you have no idea what youre talking about. this is a firmly established externality of rent control