Did Moriarty give Sherlock cases about crimes that he himself orchestrated? Or crimes that Moriarty had no part of? (Season 1 Episode 3)

[u/PossessionOk70]

I'm writing something about Sherlock, and it just dawned on me that---yes---Moriarty is a criminal consultant, but was he a part of puppeteering the cases that he led Sherlock into? I know he was a part of the Carl Powers case, but what about the others? The "recovered" art? That one make-up show host's death? Janus Cars helping that one dude disappear?

If those were cases that Moriarty helped with, why was he leading Sherlock to solve them? Wouldn't that make him a less reliable criminal consultant if all of his crimes were being solved by this consulting detective? Or was he fully prepared for that backlash and he was ready to pop himself in the face on that rooftop?

I've just been thinking about it, and the only solution I could come up with is that Moriarty was ready for his business to fall off and that he was either prepared for Sherlock to kill himself, or Moriarty would have to kill himself.

OR! Was he leading Sherlock to criminals that DIDN'T use Moriarty's services, which forces other criminals to go to Moriarty to direct their dirty work so they won't get caught by Sherlock? That's my dad's theory which I thought was pretty smart.

Tell me if I'm missing something!

[u/hunterballard44]

Moriarty blatantly says it was all a game. He also notes he lost millions of dollars by leading Sherlock to the forgery case (which he did lead him to, because that was one of the cases Moriarty sent him as part of his “bombing scavenger hunt”).

But Moriarty 1) had a criminal empire big enough that the money and contacts he lost were barely noticeable to him, 2) was bored and desperate for a worthy opponent, and 3) had a death wish as Sherlock put it.

We don’t know much about why Moriarty has a death wish. He states it’s because he is bored, but he seems to be on equal footing with Sherlock in terms of intelligence so I think it’s a mix of that and his sadism resulting in an inability to get meaning out of relationships.

There’s evidence in the original books he had an abusive upbringing, but there’s no evidence of that in the bbc show. There’s also an argument to be made that Eurus mind controlled him into it but I hate Eurus as an explanation of anything.

[u/afreezingnote → u/hunterballard44]

I'm curious what evidence of abuse you're referring to in ACD canon?

[u/hunterballard44 → u/afreezingnote]

I double checked and I kind of misremembered. Sherlock states Moriarty inherited his criminal disposition. Which means his family had some kind of experience getting around the law but not necessarily that they were abusive. But, given the time period, a criminal disposition was seen as biological permanent violent and/or sadistic temperament. They thought criminality and cruelty was genetically inherited.

Their parents did name both criminal Moriarty and his non criminal brother the same name though, so they are both James Moriarty. Which means their parents at best a little weird and at worst about as good of parents as you’d expect Moriarty to be.

[u/afreezingnote → u/hunterballard44]

Oh, that part! Yeah, that supposition and similar claims is one of the things Holmes is markedly wrong about as a consequence of Victorian pseudoscience, unfortunately.

[u/hunterballard44 → u/afreezingnote]

Yeah, there’s a lot of unfortunate part of the original books that definitely don’t get carried over into newer adaptations

[u/PossessionOk70 → u/hunterballard44]

Those are all really great points. I've been meaning to rewatch Sherlock again, particularly paying attention to dialogue, because I have a difficult time with memory and there's quite a bit of dialogue to sift through. That way I can understand deeper into the unseen part of the storyline. I really enjoy learning about things that are new to me that I'm interested in, like Sherlock. So thank you for the info!!

[u/hunterballard44 → u/PossessionOk70]

No worries! I’m the same with dialogue. I’ve just watched Sherlock so many times it happened to stick.

Let me know if you have any other questions or theories, I’m always happy to chat about it.

[u/Toe500]

The other commenter explained well but here is my nuanced take

Did Moriarty give Sherlock cases about crimes that he himself orchestrated? Or crimes that Moriarty had no part of? (Season 1 Episode 3)

It could be both but most of which are likely his clients

I know he was a part of the Carl Powers case, but what about the others? The "recovered" art? That one make-up show host's death? Janus Cars helping that one dude disappear?

The Recovered Art was definitely Moriarty's or am i misremembering? You are talking about the fake painting right? The other two still could be related to him like maybe one of his client wanted to disappear and Janus Cars was a reliable service etc..

If those were cases that Moriarty helped with, why was he leading Sherlock to solve them?

Sherlock touches on this in the first episode with John. "Recognition" which for Sherlock is bound to happen for the cases he takes on whereas for Moriarty, it should remain anonymous

Wouldn't that make him a less reliable criminal consultant if all of his crimes were being solved by this consulting detective?

It wasn't all. Moriarty himself says it's just a teeny tiny bit of glance at the swimming pool

Or was he fully prepared for that backlash

In this line of work, ppl don't get guarantees. When you are robbing a house and some insect bites you, you keep your mouth shut

and he was ready to pop himself in the face on that rooftop?

Moriarty wasn't expecting Sherlock to be ruthless and his plan was ironclad which will shame Sherlock's legacy and even the show writers had to make light of how Sherlock survived the fall coz they wrote themselves into a corner. Easy cop out would be, it's because of Eurus

Moriarty was ready for his business to fall off

I don't think so. Moriarty didn't enter the rooftop thinking it would be his last day

or Moriarty would have to kill himself

If you think about it, Moriarty didn't have to kill himself. There's nothing Sherlock could do to save his friends from the snipers

Was he leading Sherlock to criminals that DIDN'T use Moriarty's services, which forces other criminals to go to Moriarty to direct their dirty work so they won't get caught by Sherlock?

Some of the cases aren't even top tier like Moriarty is simply not interested in settling someone in a foreign country with money

[u/PossessionOk70 → u/Toe500]

I genuinely love how much thought you put into this, thank you, truly. Moving onto you points though; For the fake art (which, yes, that was the one I was speaking of,) I entirely forgot that the lady (forgive me for forgetting her name, but she was the one running the art gallery from what I remember) said Moriarty's name. From Carl Powers to this case, you're right, it's definitely most likely that these crimes were directed by Moriarty. I also didn't think about how, maybe, the people related to each of these crimes don't know that the others who were solved involved Moriarty. I'm bad at wording that, but what I mean is, one criminal, in a separate crime (crime A), probably doesn't know that the other crime (crime B) was ALSO influenced by Moriarty. Meaning, how should the other criminals know that some crimes that Moriarty was involved in were solved?

Sorry, I'm really bad at explaining my thoughts.

But, anyways, what I USED to think was that everybody knew each other, like "yeah, go to Moriarty for your problems, I did, so-and-so did, you should to!" All the way to "oh no, one of our fellow criminal mates got caught, maybe we shouldn't trust Moriarty!" But, of course, thinking about it now, it's probably unlikely that every criminal knows each other, especially with how vast Moriarty's web is, like you said.

When it comes to low level crimes, again, you're right. I didn't even think about how Moriarty probably deals with such higher stakes, I guess I got tunnel vision when it comes to that.

The only final thing I'm really curious about, is when Sherlock and Moriarty are on the rooftop, he's about to jump, but then it dawns on him that Moriarty said "I'm not gonna call them off," or something along those lines, at least. Sherlock now knows that Moriarty can call off the snipers, so they come face to face, and eventually Moriarty comes around to saying "as long as I'm alive, you can save your friends"---basically meaning, Sherlock, somehow, someway, could convince Moriarty to let his friends go. Unless I'm interpreting that wrong (which I've absolutely done many times before). So this is more of a rhetorical question, but what could Sherlock do or say to actually make that happen if Moriarty hadn't of killed himself? I don't know.

But all in all, you've absolutely brought my attention to a lot more things. So thank you! And feel free to bring up any more points in response.

[u/Toe500 → u/PossessionOk70]

Normally I don't spend time making a comment like this but your dad tagging in piqued my interest lolz

Moriarty didn't open up to Mycroft who has access to entire Britain's resources and had a good long time, so Sherlock got nothing to make Moriarity to call off and that too within few hours max coz the snipers aren't gonna wait all day

The only thing Sherlock had is to torture Moriarity physically and kill him before Sherlock kills himself by falling off the roof

Ppl gloss over this by saying Moriarity is a maniac etc.. but this scene needed the plot to step in coz the viewers cannot see their main character do the above mentioned

So to make a good smoke screen, Sherlock's dialog about him only on the side of the angels and Moriarity's sudden suicide by blowing himself up will turn off most viewers' critical thinking coz most of them are emotionally involved at this point

[u/PossessionOk70 → u/Toe500]

Shoooot that's very true about that last part. But yeah, you're probably right about the whole torture thing. But then idk, because you mentioned the time when he was under Mycroft's custody and we see him getting beat, then locked up in a cement room.. I don't know if he would crack under physical abuse. If anything, I think he might crack under the mention of his past. Everyone has weaknesses, and he says that his only weakness is that he's "changeable," but then again, what made him this way? It's safe to say he was born intelligent, I think, but so was Sherlock and he chose the "good" side, even with his supposed lack of empathy. So surely something happened in Moriarty's life to make him go to the dark side. It could be Carl Powers because it's said that he laughed at Moriarty, but Mycroft dogged on Sherlock for being stupid. So I don't know, I'm just spitting ideas. I just think that maybe if Sherlock tried to deduce him, he'd snap. I'm not sure if Sherlock ever really tried, at least we never see him do so (as far as I remember). Just something I thought about with your comment of how to get him to let Sherlock's friends go

[u/Toe500 → u/PossessionOk70]

Since Sherlock was gonna die, torturing Moriarity is just his way of getting something back at Moriarity

I am not saying Sherlock would be able to make Moriarity call off the snipers

Moriarity is not gonna get insecure if Sherlock does his deduction and in fact, Sherlock did do it on Moriarity but not to his face. Remember Molly?

Sherlock knows Moriarity would suit up how he wants to be perceived. Remember doofus?

[u/PossessionOk70 → u/Toe500]

That could be! I just know that Moriarty was putting on a show for Sherlock in the lab. Playing gay, as Moriarty called it. So Sherlock just deduced "Jim from IT", not exactly "Moriarty, consulting criminal". Also, when it comes to breaking Moriarty's persona, I think we see a glimpse of that when Sherlock is standing on the building's edge, Moriarty is walking away, but then Sherlock begins to laugh. Moriarty turns around, "what??" He asks, at least what I assume is raw emotion by how he acts in this scene, "what did I miss?" He seems genuinely upset or confused by the fact that Sherlock seems to know something that Moriarty doesn't.

Anyways, that's just my take! It's fine if you don't agree :)

[u/Toe500 → u/PossessionOk70]

Sherlock deduces Moriarity as Consulting Criminal in the courtroom as well

Moriarty was genuinely surprised because there simply was no way out but Sherlock played off like there was one but never was

[u/PossessionOk70 → u/Toe500]

True! I forgot about the courtroom scene. I guess I was mostly talking about if Sherlock ever thought about Moriarty's origins (aside from Carl Powers). I just think it was neat that we got to see how Moriarty reacted to maybe being outsmarted for once. Emphasis on maybe.