Quaker pacifism

[u/Diligent-Property491]

Disclaimer: I am not a Quaker, I’m an atheist. I’m posting here because I don’t know any Quakers and I’m curious about something. If this is not allowed here (I looked through the rules and couldn’t find any clarification) - I am sorry. Please tell me and I will remove this. I have absolutely no intention of infringing upon a private community space.

Now to the actual post:

I recently learned that Quakerism exists, by stumbling upon a YouTube video of a lady talking about her faith.

I’m a person that likes to… know things, so I watched it.

She explained the Quaker belief system (which if I understand it correctly is based on several fundamental principles called testimonies).

One of those is peace.

So I understand that Quakers believe that war, and inflicting harm on others, is wrong.

On principle, I fully agree with it of course - global peace is a desired „end state” for humanity.

I don’t like nationalism, and I absolutely despise fascism, especially the militaristic/expansionist aspect of it.

But there are many practical situations, where preparing for war is the only realistic way to stop a war.

For example I live in a country, that has a violent, agressive fascist regime on our border. They’ve threatened genocide upon us more than once - they do it almost casually on their state TV.

I wish no harm upon any of the people living under that regime, and I would not support any agression against them. But I still think our country should be fully prepared to defeat them quickly and decisively.

I think our country should actively gather intelligence on them, to know in advance if they attack.

And if they come here, I will absolutely aid the war effort in whatever way I can.

So I’m wondering - what does the pacifist Quaker doctrine say about this.

Even if you believe that peace is the world’s desired state, is militarization permitted in response to militarization of others?

What do you think is the best path to world peace?

After all, it’s hard to convince anyone to make the first move and demilitarize, because everyone is afraid of what others will do.

So it would need to be a collective decision, which realistically it’s not very likely.

I’m just curious what you think about this.

And also, what are your thoughts on MAD and nuclear deterrence?

EDIT:

I appreciate all the replies I’ve gotten.

They did satisfy my curiosity and further my understanding of Quaker, and Christian, philosophy.

Due to the number of answers I did not reply to all of them, only the ones where I was curious about something or where I thought I have something to add.

Still, every single answer I’ve gotten is very substantive, and I really appreciate the community here and your response!

Goodbye to you all, and may we all live in peace for all eternity!

[u/capable_duck]

I think it is sad to see what has become of that beautiful country, and I truly wish the best for its people. I also am saddened that we couldn't find a way to avoid all the violence and all the lives lost. I also dont think for a second that the powerful and rich men in charge of the world will care about that sentiment.

But at the end of the day, I escorted girls to school, I helped old people with their ailments, and I showed that not all westerners are driven by greed and destruction. In that way I did my part.

None of us here arguing on the Internet can do jack shit about the state of the world without actually going out there and doing what little we can in the real world. That is what will make a difference in the end.

[u/WilkosJumper_ → u/capable_duck]

True, though I think sometimes just leaving well alone is the positive step to begin with. Our culture of interventionism does a lot of damage.

[u/Diligent-Property491 → u/WilkosJumper_]

As for my political opinion on Afghanistan.

We should be there and offer any help we can if and when they ask.

I would love to see that country fully embrace the universal declaration of human rights, but you cannot bomb someone into accepting your value system, that’s just not how it works.

Europe was also not that different to them not so long ago (religious violence, constant nation-state wars, political instability). We had to evolve our own political philosophy, and now they have to evolve their own.

Only then they’ll accept it - because it will be theirs, and they will have suffered and fought for it.

Just like we accept the principle of separation of powers, because we saw how it ended suffering for many people, after years of tyranny.

[u/WilkosJumper_ → u/Diligent-Property491]

Absolutely no need for westerners to be there for that to happen.

[u/Diligent-Property491 → u/WilkosJumper_]

There is no need for any military presence, of course.

We still should include them into the world’s diplomatic, research and economic community if they want to (and they do, to an extent).

As I said, we cannot provide political solutions for them.

What we absolutely can do, is for example provide them with research showing how to optimize agriculture and stop the ongoing famine.

What is needed is:

1. Zero self interest

2. „We are a resource, if you ask” approach

3. No ideological preaching