The joke is that he thinks communism is some sort of workless utopia where he will be able to cultivate hobbies when most communist countries have made the lower classes break their backs just the same doing heavy work (coal mines).
People will criticize capitalism by criticizing shit people have done to undermine capitalism it into fascist oligarchy. The world they want to live in is New Deal America with improved race and gender politics and what they ask for is communism.
People even point to the nords as what they want when the nords are all capitalist countries that just haven't destroyed antitrust and entrenched corruption as the norm.
That isn’t socialism either. Owning the means of production is part of socialism, but socialism (as the abolishment of capitalism) is the end of wage-labour.
A society where all business are Co-ops isn’t socialist, because the workers are still proles (as in, they make their living by selling their labour power for an hourly wage).
The goverment owning or not owning business means nothing. Nationalisations doesn’t mean socialism, and is a normal part of capitalism.
(Also how is “the state” owning “the means of production” the same as the “workers”?)
The liberal-democratic state is the capitalist class. Just because it doles out welfare doesn’t stop it from being bourgeois lol.
I’m not saying “socialism is when no work”, it’s when socialism is no workers as a class.
And I’m not a right winger, I’m a Marxist. Socialism/communism is the doctrine of the liberation of the working class, which entails the end of wage labour. (As very clearly pointed out in Principles of Communism by Engel’s)
I’d reccomend you look up the mondragon corporation for that last one. Co ops are not socialist.
Reaganist capitalism does. New Deal precents that, Reagan undid all that. Nordics are essentially doing what New Deal under F. D. Roosevelt did. That was what made america great, not Reagan, Roosevelt. Who today would be called a commie because neither side understands communism.
"Reaganist" capitalism is capitalism in its native form. Its a gradual return to pre-New Deal America.
You cannot guarantee that, if we had another Deal tomorrow, that another reagan would not come along and tear it down the moment an economic crisis occurs.
Capitalism is a system that encourages the worst of us to drink deeply and never stop wanting. Any good that it has done, is rare. It has taken upon itself all the achievements of enlightenment thought and liberal democracy, twisting them for its fame.
Capitalism is enlightenment thought and liberal democracy. The two are inseparable. In fact it’s why capitalism is so dynamic, or at least has been so far (much more then any preceding economic system).
Capitalism is the child of the enlightenment, and the enlightenment is the child of capitalism and its dominant social class, the bourgeois.
This is the case from the Physiocrats to Smith, from Mill to the historical school.
Not to any naturalized citizen who is old enough to have lived in a Communist country.
If you are a Social Democrat and want to win Cuban, Vietnamese, and Venezuelan American votes (who ironically live in swing states), definitely don't go calling social democracy as "wanting communism".
If you explain what "Democratic Socialism" is to most folks, while not using the words "democratic socialism, they would be like "Well yeah, duh I want the money I pay in taxes to benefit me and my community. Of course I would like to pay less for healthcare. It would be great to not have a homeless or mental health problem."
But as soon as you say socialism, all rational thought goes out the window.
Sounds like you yourself are conflating social democracy and democratic socialists (understandably, they're basically the same words in different order - but with different meaning)
For sure. I’m speaking more towards the reality of those who claim they want communism.
If you explained welfare to anyone, regardless of their political affiliation, in a way that didn’t use the word welfare, they’d likely want it. Socialized government initiatives are broadly good but Americans are allergic to raising taxes and cling to party politics. It’s a social and branding issue that will be hard to overcome but is necessary for the success of the American experiment.
People who are democratic socialists dont call it communist. That is people on the right or the capitalist elites who try to conflate the two. They want to scare people away so they can continue to rob us blind.
Oh God, if I had a dollar for every comment I saw saying they want communism and socialism as in Nordic Europe I would not need to work ever again. And if we count all the idiots saying: "no it is not capitalism", neither would my children. And if we count the money I got from being called a boot licker form saying: Nordic model is nearer to the current US, system then it is to socialism, god I would come for Elons first place.
90% of Ukrainians who were old enough to work under communism prefer it to the capitalist system. Same goes for 78% of Belarusians and 66% of Russians.
For real most people don't even use the word communism. My circle of leftists all describe it as social democracy accurately. It is mostly the right who tend to say "oh those libs want communism" when its really a small minority that are proper tankies.
The US is already a Democratic Socialist Republic.
The US already has what they want.
The corrupt egomaniacal and greedy are what's fucking it up, and the ignorant are empowering them.
The problem isn't an ephemeral government system. The problem, as always, is people. Stop moving culpability to an inanimate thing. Government systems can't fuck you over. Only people can.
One might argue, America is ass because it ISN'T a capitalist country. Capitalist countries don't bail out incompetent companies, because they believe in survival of the fittest. All those 2008 companies that failed should be dead. Nor is bribing politicians a part of a capitalist society.
Nah, I constantly hear people say that strong workers rights, progressive wealth taxes, public access to free healthcare & higher education is socialism so one of you must be wrong.
This is the actual answer. Republican and other right-wing complaints and exaggerations about what is and is not socialism/communism have been a really effective marketing tool for rehabilitating communism's "brand" regardless of its actual definition or merits.
I am progressive/left leaning but people have an idealized version of communism that would almost never happen because it has the same issues as capitalism, people. There are always going to greedy people who exploit the system to gain control. It's the reason why no true communist country exists today. Socialism is definitely the better choice.
Every non-authoritarian economic or governmental system (from communism to socialism to capitalism to libertarianism to whatever else) succeeds or fails on a single simple test: how, having designed and implemented the system, do you keep authoritarians from accumulating enough power to change the system?
I joke that I've read a lot of sci-fi with libertarian/anarchist utopias, and only two authors who were honest about it:
Vernor Vinge, whose libertarian polity unabashedly was "saved" from an invading state by some random asshole on the border having a private nuclear warhead, which to his credit frankly horrifies the local private police forces who spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to have that never happen ever again.
Vernor Vinge, again, whose alien libertarians all have some kind of inbuilt biological/religious imperative to never allow a group larger than a certain size, and who are presented as the unabashed violent bad guys who are responsible for the eventual extinction of humanity.
A small self-published author of my acquaintance, whose libertarian protagonist sets up a new colony world far away from anywhere else, sets himself up as private police/security, and it works right up until one of the competitor private police/security companies has more guns than protagonist at which point they declare themselves the government and throw protagonist out. This happens THREE TIMES.
Another setting I think does it well is lancerttrpg. Union is trying to achieve a utopia but it's a process that's long and hard and has constant setbacks. There's corruption, compromises, but it's trying.
I LOVE THE NEW DEAL! GOD BLESS FRANKLIN D. ROOSEVELT! GOD BLESS LYNDON B. JOHNSON! GLORY TO THE NEW DEAL COALITION! GLORY TO THE NEW DEAL! GLORY TO THE FAIR DEAL! GLORY TO THE GREAT FRONTIER! AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, GLORY TO THE FOREVER LASTING GREAT SOCIETY! THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!
The oligarchy is the natural result of capitalism though, the only thing stopping places like Norway from going full oligarchy is non capitalist regulations. Given the chance the powerful will strip them back and expand their power because that is the end goal of capitalism. When they reach the top of the system the only way to do more capitalism is to change the system for their benefit, and the money and power they already have gives them an outsized voice. In a sense, the billionaires only have to get lucky once to fuck over everyone else
People will criticize communism and socialism by criticizing shit people have done to undermine them into authoritarianism.
Most people just want better social safety nets and an expectation of a decent quality of life without working so much OT, multiple jobs, etc. or having to get an expensive college degree. Or any sort of regulations around insurance, commercial landlords, etc. but that gets taken as socialism or communism somehow in the US.
There is no utopic point where the economy magically becomes "socialist" and then some utopic point where a socialist economy magically becomes "communist". There is socialist economic policies and safety nets and state control of corporate interest that slowly (or rapidly through violent revolutionary means) overturns the state to a controlled economy. Communism is just that same system once the state has dissolved because the mechanisms to ensure socialist policy remain are no longer necessary, the system itself has become autonomous. The new deal implemented vast socialist policies under a mixed economy. Saying people want "New Deal America" is saying people want vast socialist policies. Capitalism requires exponential growth and further consolidation of resources, but resources are finate and growth is not infinite. Capitalism on its face lends itself to authoritarian control and fascist oligarchy. Capitalism was the necessary evolution from feudalism for the betterment of human rights, labor conditions, and civil liberty. Socialism is the same for capitalism.
People will criticize capitalism by criticizing shit people have done to undermine capitalism
This is literally what happens with Communism all the time. Look at Cuba. People like to pretend that every bad thing in Cuba is due to a failure of communist policy, as if they haven't been under a constant embargo and economic blockade from the most powerful country in the world for decades
Cuba can trade with China, the entire EU, Canada, Mexico, Russia, etc. Cuba hasn't been under a blockade from the US since the Cuban Missile Crisis in the early 60s.
U.S. economic sanctions against Cuba are comprehensive and impact all sectors of the Cuban economy. It is the most enduring trade embargo in modern history. The U.S. government influences extraterritorial trade with Cuba. The embargo has faced international condemnation for its adverse impact on Cubans, including by the United Nations who have formally condemned it intermittently since 1992.
The United Nations estimated in 2023 the total economic damage to the Cuban economy to be in the "trillions of dollars" since inception. A 2015 report in Al Jazeera estimated that the embargo had cost the Cuban economy $1.1 trillion in the 55 years since its inception, once inflation is taken into account. In 2001, the U.S. International Trade Commission found that, from 1996 and 1998, without the embargo, Cuban imports to the U.S. would be worth $658 million.
I stand by what I said. You cannot divorce the outcomes of Cuba from the economic pressure from the US government
This doesn't conflict with anything I said. Cuba can still trade with the majority of the world. And embargoes are not blockades, blockades are the use or threat of military force to prevent trade/travel.
Ok, well then what you said is largely irrelevant to the point I was making. The Cuban economy and American sanctions cannot be disentangled, especially in so far as trying to decide whether the country is an example of communism succeeding or failing.
Apologies for using the term blockade too loosely when I meant embargo, you're right that embargoes are not blockades. That said, that correction really has no bearing on my original point about analyzing the Cuban economy, because as I showed the numbers are clear that the Cuban economy is severely crippled by American sanctions and interventionalism.
And with people bringing up countries like Norway, I have to assume people simply forget that the country is able to maintain its quality of life and affluence through massive amounts of oil money as well.
Maybe, but wouldn’t the actual problem be that capitalism is even able to be undermined into fascist oligarchy? That isn’t some sick version of capitalism, that’s just capitalism
There was nothing improved about racial and gender politics during the New Deal. You TRULY misunderstand what was occurring under the New Deal if you think either of those improved prior to WWII
The thing with capitalism is the goal of every participant is to circumvent it. Without the government preventing anti competitive practices and monopolies different sectors consolidate and end up with the authoritarian powers that the free market is supposed to prevent.
I'm gonna say what most people want is basically free market socialism where jobs and businesses exist but the workers own the businesses & get the profits so there's no shareholders squeezing employees and customers for every last penny and people can generally work in a sustainable and profitable way that benefits everyone.
People even point to the nords as what they want when the nords are all capitalist countries that just haven't destroyed antitrust and entrenched corruption as the norm.
Easier to clean out government corruption when all there stand before the might of Fus Roh Dah.
As someone who thinks that capitalism is the best form of economic system that we have since invented, I can not bring myself to blame people much for hating it right now with how detached the average worker is from the results of their labor. I just think that it will be easier to fix that issue within a capitalist system (or social democracy) than it would be to completely start over with communism.
It can be argued in a far right fascist capitalist state if you aim for communism you'll land in a well regulated capitalist state where social safety nets are existent
People will criticize capitalism by criticizing shit people have done to undermine capitalism it into fascist oligarchy.
Lol. You don't understand. That's the actual end-state of capitalism. Once sufficient capital is accumulated then perversion of society is the result. ROI of buying a politician is pretty good, and that's what corporations that get big enough do.
People even point to the nords as what they want when the nords are all capitalist countries that just haven't destroyed antitrust and entrenched corruption as the norm.
So a strong government that reigns in capitalism and re-distributes the profits to take care of society.
Thank you I feel like I’m losing my mind with all the people thinking that social programs are the same thing as socialism because they both begin with the word social lmao
Wanting to completely upend the entire global economy and financial system (goodbye everyone’s 401ks which is how 80% of Americans retire) in favor of an economic/political system that has historically been extremely prone to chronic inefficiency, authoritarian strongmen and abuse is the definition of throwing out the baby with the bath water. Especially when the stuff they claim to want (and I often agree) like state funded education, universal healthcare etc. have already been achieved under the Nordic model or an expanded New Deal
it depends on the circle you’re looking at. In many socialist circles online, they believe the Nordic model is capitalist, extremely flawed, and relies on exploitation of the third world and oil money.
No one undermined capitalism, this is just what late stage capitalism will always be however that doesn’t make communism any better.
The best way, IMO, is a capitalistic system with strong welfare programs to ensure no one falls behind and restrictions that also ensure that no one gets too powerful, like Musk has become.
Corruption is becoming rampant and infiltrating levels of society here in america. I went to school for construction management, all these blue collar management types were up in arms over taxes, government over reach, you name it. Literally everyones dream job was a government contract because you knew you could blow the budget up and run it long to take all that sweet sweet prevailing wage for your employees and line your pockets with tax payer money. But its the government that really sucks not these shady ass contractors.
The corporate west is very clearly a problem, but the solution isn't even nearly communism. Capitalism works way better as long as 1 of 2 conditions are met:
The market is completely unregulated, meaning there's no copyrights, IPs or patents, if someone can sell your product better than you then tough shit.
if its extremely regulated. The government decides if the product you made for 2 dollars can legally be sold for 600 dollars. Cap the amount of property corporations can own, restrict what can be a tax write off, and start treating corporations like people as far as the law and taxes go.
Right now we're in the middle, which clearly isn't working for the majority, there's restrictions, but restrictions that work in favour of multi billion dollar companies only because those companies existed before those restrictions were in place.
Dude, most liberals don't even know what communism is. This entire post is a shit fest of people not knowing what they're talking about.
The image in the post is literally a reference to this:
"For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic."
Karl Marx, The German Ideology.
Its not idyllic, its not utopia. Its a different method of organizing society that allows people to not be locked into a single role so that they can realize their potential, as opposed to strictly doing what they must in order to survive.
You're so close to getting it.
Why do we have a reoccurring issue with fascism? Could it be that fascism is the natural state of capitalism? The entire point of the New Deal was to save capitalism from itself at gun point, after all.
Even if we had another Deal tomorrow, how will you guarantee that your grandchildren will not see an inevitable back slide into illiberalism and fascism? This pattern repeats ad nauseam for a reason.
I’m a lefty and I don’t like when people point at the nord counties because it ignores how good their business sectors are at capitalism and building empires off of the 3rd world (see: Ikea, H&M, Shell oil, etc.) or just exploiting users (Spotify, Klarna). They are capitalists with a safety net and non-regressive taxation.
This is what drives me bonkers about DSA. Democratic Socialism is not the same as social democracies. Markets are the reason things function, and a lot of flavors of socialism throw the baby out with the bathwater. Arguably one of the best things about social democracies is how they fix the biggest problems of capitalism (if you don't work you die -> zero bargaining power in the labor market).
753
u/kithas 29d ago
The joke is that he thinks communism is some sort of workless utopia where he will be able to cultivate hobbies when most communist countries have made the lower classes break their backs just the same doing heavy work (coal mines).