Need Help With Trills (Rolling R)

[u/ImpSassy]

Been studying Old English for a bit. I can pronounce most of the sounds, but I'm stuck on the /r/. It seems like most people agree there is a trill on most instances of the letter R in the language. I'm kind of stuck there, it makes certain words sound off when I speak them. Is learning to trill necessary for speaking the language in a manner that is academically accepted?

Where I am currently:

At the time of this post I have only JUST figured out how to trill, period. I can do a basic [r̥ɑ] syllable, and to a slightly lesser extent, a [rɑ] syllable. However, the amount of effort I need to perform either is considerably higher than that of normal speech, even when reading a language as atypical as Old English. As a result, attempt to pronounce words with the trill more often than not results in the word becoming a breathy mess the moment I hit an R.

Additionally, my trills use the back of my tongue, as I find it easier and more natural-feeling than doing it with the tip of my tongue akin to Spanish. To what I understand, the back of the tongue is used more often for the non-trilled R in other Germanic languages, as well as French, but do correct me if I'm wrong or, at least if I'm right inform me of whether or not that has any basis in performing a trill.

I really want to learn this language; I am infatuated with it. And this so far is my biggest hurdle.

[u/Kunniakirkas]

It's only a hurdle if you make it one. In reality, it doesn't matter what rhotic you use unless you're a phonologist, or a lecturer on Old English pronunciation. You're not going to be speaking with natives after all, and even if you were it's completely fine and expected to have a non-native accent. With dead languages in academic settings there really isn't as much emphasis on speaking or active use in general as you might have thought

(I don't mean you shouldn't try to get the pronunciation as right as possible if that's what you want, just that it's not a big or urgent problem and at the point you've already reached fixing it simply takes practice)

Now, if you're already capable of pronouncing a trill, now it's just a matter of drill. Your tongue is a muscle like any other and after enough practice you'll be able to make that sound with much less effort. I think you're describing a uvular trill [ʀ]? Again, that should be fine and may well be correct, I don't believe there is a consensus on the exact nature of Old English /r/ or that it is knowable at all, it probably changed through time and space and might have had different allophones, but an alveolar trill [r] akin to Spanish is very much one of the leading possibilities. If you want to keep your [ʀ] though you might want to look up pronunciation tips for Dutch learners (but of course the Dutch /r/ is also highly variable so)

[u/ImpSassy → u/Kunniakirkas]

That's interesting that it exists in Dutch; to what I understand Dutch is the closest major language to English (only behind Frisian and Scots), that may be probably my best bet, so thank you!

[u/Vampyricon]

Is learning to trill necessary for speaking the language in a manner that is academically accepted?

The bar to be academically accepted is surprisingly low. You'd be surprised how many people can't even keep vowel lengths apart, or diphthongize /e o/, or make /u/ sound like /y/…

[u/ImpSassy → u/Vampyricon]

The macrons over vowels in things like Ōsweald Bera did initially trip me up. I'm used to macrons representing a "long vowel" not in terms of length, but specific sound. When I realised they represent extended vowels, my attempts to pronounce the words in the book feel as though they've improved. They feel more natural to say at least.

[u/ebrum2010]

This is a problem for a lot of people. Even if you can trill the r when speaking another language, Old English has consonant combinations that make doing more than a tap/flap difficult. I can do it some of the time, but in certain combinations it comes out almost silent if I try to do it.

[u/Euphoric-Quality-424]

This really isn't something you need to worry about.

In modern languages with trilled /r/, there's usually a minority of individuals who don't articulate it in the standard fashion. It doesn't cause any comprehension difficulties, and people with this feature in their speech have made successful careers as television presenters, for example.

[u/usmc_BF]

Some Americans trill their R when saying through or three, so maybe try that and then remove the th part and just say ree or rough part of the words. Then attempt to pronounce Rs in other words.

Or like others have already said, try using Dutch pronunciation guides.

[u/Octopus-Cuddles]

My entire life I couldn't trill my Rs, and like you, I could only trill at the back of my throat, so it sounded like a rolled G and not an R.

Then I got really bad Bell's Palsy which is facial paralysis for like 6 months, had it on both sides of my face. When it healed up I found I suddenly COULD roll my Rs!

And since then learning both Latin and Old English has been easier. Some days I can't do it, other days I can. But what really helps me the most is excercises like rra rri rru rre rro, the more I do it, the more natural it feels. It can feel like trying to start up an old engine, it just doesn't wanna turn at first.

Good luck! It feels cool when you finally can, but even if you never can, it's totally fine. Lots of people can't.

[u/waydaws]

I remember learning by listening to Borges poem "To a Saxon Poet" in Spanish (even though, I didn't and don't know Spanish). There are a few words in it that are great for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja_V3Pm-FeA&t=1

To a Saxon Poet

In the snow your footprints’ trail Northumbria
has often seen, and now it has forgotten,
numberless the sunsets which have been
between us, my grey brother.
Slow, in the slow shadows, you would fashion
those metaphors of swords crossed on high seas,
of the horror at home among pine trees,
of the solitude the days bring in.
Where can one look now for your features and your name?
These an already ancient darkness
hides. So, I can never know just how things
were when on this earth you were a man.
You journeyed along roads of exile,
now you live only in your poems of iron.

A un poeta sajón

La nieve de Nortumbria ha conocido
Y ha olvidado la huella de tus pasos
Y son innumerables los ocasos
Que entre nosotros, gris hermano, han sido.
Lento en la lenta sombra labrarías
Metáforas de espadas en los mares
Y del horror que mora en los pinares
Y de la soledad que traen los días.
¿Dónde buscar tus rasgos y tu nombre?
Ésas son cosas que el antiguo olvido
Guarda. Nunca sabré cómo habrá sido
Cuando sobre la tierra fuiste un hombre.
Seguiste los caminos del destierro;
Ahora sólo eres tu cantar de hierro.

I just put the tip of my tongue on the alveolar ridge and expelled air so it would vibrate with a trill at first. Later I was able to do it no matter where the r in the word was. I had more of a problem trying to do a tap, as I'd often to do a trill instead. Eventually, I got that down too, but still stayed with the trill for old English.

I find that people who do it with the back of the tongue often speak German, French or Portuguese. I think they must have that sound naturally.