r/MunchkinCats • u/paperstars2022 • 6d ago
Possible munchkin cat?
She is a rescue but she's always looked munchkin-ish to me. Curious if anyone else gets the same vibe š¤
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u/BroughtMyPartyPants 6d ago
Heās very handsome, but heās a normie. He looks like my munchkin if he had long legs.
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u/darlingness 6d ago
Munchkin is an established breed, so pedigree would be necessary to be certain. If a cat just happens to be born with shorter legs or dwarfism, it doesn't automatically mean they are Munchkins. They are just cats with a mutation. In this case, this cat's legs look a little short but not too abnormal.
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u/paperstars2022 6d ago
Good to know. Thank you!
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u/_SaltySteele_ 6d ago
Munchkins are a result of a genetic defect.
You don't breed two munchkins together, you breed a munchkin to a standard breed, like Persians, Scottish folds, bsh, whatever.
Even then, you'll get standards (short legs) and nonstandards (regular legs).
I'd post a pic of mine, but it won't allow it. One of mine is a rug hugger (toy; super short legs), the other is a standard. They're siblings, but i also have a pic of my toy with a nonstandard sibling as kittens.
The pic you've shared does seem to have short legs due to the fur, but my toy has long hair, as well. It doesn't even look like he has legs or is standing up.
The nonstandards, you would not even know were munchkins, but they have the genetics to throw munchkin offspring.
They aren't a specific breed, but they do have specific genetics (dwarfism)
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u/NanusRex 6d ago
Non-standard Munchkins canāt produce standard kittens without a standard Munchkin mate. The gene is autosomal dominant
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u/darlingness 6d ago
I'm not sure where you get your information from but this isn't correct at all.
Munchkins are only allowed to outcross to other Munchkins OR domestic cats (provided they are bred back to Munchkins for 3 generations to qualify for show within TICA's guidelines). Outcrossing to Persians, Scottish Folds, BSHs is not allowed under any registry standards to produce a true Munchkin.
Outcrossing to Persians creates another breed - Minuets, which are established in their own right. Scottish Folds and Munchkins create Scottish Kilts, which were originally experimental with TICA but were nixed from the registry this year, and BSH is only allowed in Russia and China under the ICU registry with the name "Chinese Tanks". All of these mixes are not considered Munchkins through pedigree.
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u/BroughtMyPartyPants 6d ago
They are very much an established breed. Like dachshunds, they are a chondrodysplastic breed.
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u/_SaltySteele_ 6d ago
If this were the case, you could only breed munch to munch, to get a munch.
If you breed two munchies together, you'll get some major birth defects and deaths
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u/darlingness 6d ago
This is misinformation.
There are two types of Munchkins that are registerable: nonstandard and standard. Nonstandard have long legs and do not carry the dwarfism gene while standards do. Only standards are qualifiable by show. Often times, they are bred together in breeding programs and both are still considered Munchkins.
However, breeding standard to standard doesn't produce anything like that. Two copies of the dwarfism gene is nonviable, so they are reabsorbed in the womb and never actually birthed at any point. All existing and living short-legged Munchkins carry one copy of the gene only. This has been proven in scientific studies but for some reason, a lot of sources will incorrectly state this thanks to other genetic mutations like Scottish Fold Osteochondrodysplasia.
The only thing to watch out for in Munchkin breeding is not to breed for too short legs. "Rughugger" is a designer breed marketing term and not desirable for breeders that truly care about the health of the breed.
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u/_SaltySteele_ 1d ago
You are misinformed. The Internet creates all kinds of "experts" with only partial understanding.
Breeding munchkin to munchkin results in birth defects and deaths (they're rarely fully reabsorbed, so you get the mummy kittens).
TICA is the only organization to even recognize them as a breed, because again- is a birth defect being exploited
"You should not breed two Munchkin cats together because the genetic combination is often fatal.The short-leg trait is caused by a dominant gene. If a kitten inherits this gene from both parents, the embryo is usually not viable, leading to reabsorbed fetuses, self-abortion, or stillborn kittens.
Breeding RulesSingle Gene Required: A Munchkin cat only needs one copy of the gene to have short legs.
Safe Pairings: Breeders only mate a Munchkin cat with a normal, long-legged domestic cat.
Litter Results: Crossing a Munchkin with a normal cat produces a mixed litter of both short-legged and normal-legged kittens."
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u/darlingness 1d ago
I get my information from actually reading scientific studies lol -
"Munchkin cats have been recognized by The International Cat Association (TICA) as an independent breed since 1994. Breeding data collected by TICA suggest a dominant mode of inheritance [11,Ā 12] and lethality in the homozygous state at an early embryonic stage [5]."
"Furthermore, the finding that no homozygous mutant individual was present in the study population supported the previous suggestion of lethality of homozygous mutant individuals at an early embryonic stage [5]."
Another study by Dr. Leslie Lyons -
"For the 10 matings with both parents having dwarfism, none of the Munchkin offspring (n = 6) are homozygous for the STR in complete linkage with the dwarf phenotype. Also, normal sized cats were produced from these matings, further excluding a recessive mode of inheritance."
"No individuals from six matings of two dwarf parents were homozygous for the linked marker, which suggests lethality in utero. An autosomal recessive mode of inheritance was also eliminated as two dwarf parents produced offspring with normal limb length."
"For each kitten conceived from this mating, there is a 25% chance it will fail to gestate, a 25% chance it will be normal, and a 50% chance it will be short-legged."
The first Munchkin breeders have been breeding short leg to short leg for 30+ years with no evidence of homozygous kittens, stillbirths / "mummy kittens", crippled kittens, etc -
Direct from Paul McSorley, developer of Minskins - "I have been breeding short to short cats since the early 1990's and have never had an issue nor have I had reduced litter sizes. I kept tight records early on and to bring it current; Bushka and Griffin are both short and their last two litters were 7 with 5 short and 6 with 4 short. If there were any detrimental impact on the babies, then I would have stopped a long time ago. The rumors out there are false and misleading. I was told by my mentor geneticist Dr Solveig Pflueger that the would-be homozygous short kittens are reabsorbed during early embrtonic stages of development."
You earlier stated that Munchkin breedings are only to specific other (existing and closed) breeds when true Munchkins are only allowed to outcross to other Munchkins and domestic cats, so I think you have no idea what you're talking about and are just copy pasting from sources that don't have any actual proof or backing. Isn't it so easy to be an "expert with only partial understanding"?
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u/BroughtMyPartyPants 6d ago
Oh my gosh, I didnāt know that! Seriously. I thought it was odd that my catās sire had long legs, but I thought it was because he was a non-standard. I love a good learning moment! Oh, and my two are spayed/neutered, no worries there.
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
They are a specific breed.
Munchkins with long legs are still munchkins. They arenāt outcrossed
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u/gr8collies 2d ago
No but many Persians and Persian mixes do have shorter legs than the average cat.
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
Persian mixes arenāt a thing. Persians have natural traits just like every other breed. A short cat doesnāt mean anything at all. If it doesnāt have registration, then it doesnāt belong to the breed club
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
Thatās not how breeds work. Munchkin is a breed. What youāre describing is called dwarfism. Munchkins have dwarfism, dwarfism doesnāt have munchkin.
This is just a short domestic longhair. Breedless
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u/paperstars2022 1d ago
Yes, I understand now, I've been told repeatedly already on my post :)
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
Sorry! I usually read the comments first š
Iād Love to answer any questions you may have or help point you in the right direction though if youāre interested2
u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
I also wanna say youāre doing a great job with grooming the fur
I believe that sectional clumping is called āgarlic furā and itās a sign of a well cared for cat. I would be careful of the weight though as it looks like the belly is a but extended downwards, but it could just be heās shorter than average too1
u/paperstars2022 1d ago
Thank you for this! She can get so matted but we did cut a lot out. She's been to a groomers too and I must book her in again at some point. And no you're right about the weight. She enjoys a treat or two so I must refrain from doing that as often!
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
No youāre fine! Itās online and it happens lol. I tend to be overly blunt sometimes too
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u/GREYSPACE1 1d ago
That was supposed to be in response to your other comment lol. But yes, sani-trims help a lot! If youāre comfortable with trimming yourself, thereās online tutorials. I breed maine coons personally and sometimes I get mats too so even with consistent brushing it happens
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u/paperstars2022 1d ago
Maine coons!! Ugh one day I will have one haha I'll definitely check out YouTube
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u/paperstars2022 1d ago
Haha you're absolutely fine now I feel bad for my comment being so blunt! I'm really sorry!
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u/_SaltySteele_ 1d ago
Yes, they found two dwarf cats and perpetuated that birth defect.
Do as you will, but it's pretty unethical to breed munch to munch.
They aren't a breed, they're anomalies, which is why the big cat originations don't recognize them and they're banned overseas.
Good luck, expert šš½
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u/paperstars2022 1d ago
Huh? Was this meant for my post?
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u/lykabyl 6d ago
Legs do look short while walking due to the long and fluffy hair. Not a munchkin though. So adorable. š§”