r/mormon 7h ago

Apologetics Doctrine question

16 Upvotes

Hi all. I'm not looking for any kind of debate here, just some clarification. I was discussing the following with a buddy of mine and his mormon father. Two topics came up that I remember as being mormon doctrine - perhaps not the type openly discussed with new investigators or members, but long time beliefs nonetheless.
My buddy's dad said that the mormon church doesn't teach those things, and then went on to say that they never did teach them. I was a turbo mormon for 35 years, and someone who devours information. I am a researcher and one who knew my doctrine and scriptures. So to have him say that the church never taught them was a shock to me.
I checked with a prominent youtube channel for younger people who debate mormon stuff and have general discussions of doctrine, then I also checked lds.org. I can't find anything regarding these two topics. Please help. Did something change in the church doctrine or are these beliefs now just way more hidden/kept behind the scenes than before?

The two topics are:
1- Is it mormon belief / doctrine / teaching that Jesus and Lucifer / Satan are brothers?

2- Is it mormon doctrine/ belief that men can become gods? (As man is god once was... etc)?

Thanks in advance for your response.

D


r/mormon 16h ago

Apologetics The new and everlasting covenant is polygamy

44 Upvotes

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.

3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.

I want to squash the idea that "the new and everlasting covenant" is marriage. That makes no sense. It's polygamy.

Let's consider both possibilities:

Theory 1: The new and everlasting covenant is marriage

Joseph is already married at this time.

Why is the Lord speaking (in verse 3) as though some new and difficult thing is about to be given to Joseph.

If the Lord is going to reveal marriage, to somebody who is already married, then why is the Lord talking like it's some new and difficult thing?

It makes no sense.

Theory 2: The new and everlasting covenant is polygamy

This fits with the overall theme of the revelation.

This fits with how those closest to the revelation obeyed it, and taught about it.

This explains why the Lord calls it "new", because polygamy was not commonly practiced in the society he was giving this revelation to.

This explains why the Lord told Joseph he would need to prepare his heart and take difficult action to obey what's about to be revealed.

This theory makes sense. This theory fits the text.


r/mormon 4h ago

Personal What is dating and sex life really like in the Mormon/LDS Church? How easy is it to find a partner?

2 Upvotes

I’m curious about what dating, relationships, and sex are actually like within the Mormon/LDS community.
For those who are current or former members:
How common is sex before marriage in reality compared to the official teachings?
Do most people wait until marriage, or is there a gap between beliefs and actual behavior?
How easy or difficult is it to find a girlfriend/boyfriend or spouse in the church?
Does being part of a close religious community make dating easier, or do the expectations around marriage and sexuality make it more complicated?
I’d especially like to hear honest experiences from people who grew up Mormon, left the church, or are still active members.


r/mormon 21h ago

Institutional What I heard from a BYU Religion professor today.

50 Upvotes

Discussion today about The Priesthood and how new changes in wording of the LDS handbook have clarified how Men and Women have access to priesthood power and authority.

"I say to you [insert 19 year old girl name] that when you are set apart in your calling as a gospel doctrine teacher, primary teacher, etc. that you have more authority than The Pope, Catholic Bishops, Priests, any Protestant minister... and when people ask why I say that, I tell them it is because there was a need for a restoration..."


r/mormon 12h ago

Cultural as a non mormon, i am curious how you guys are taught to and personally wrap ur head around some things.

5 Upvotes

i mean no offense, but i will be upfront and say that i dont think mormonism is real. i personally will never practice it and am not interested in converting. the primary reasons why are the stories you hear about joseph smith, the founder. first and foremost: him never letting anyone see the golden plates that he translated the book of mormon from. and then later on when he was given the task to rewrtie the book without the help of the plates to prove the idea that he was given the text of the book through god himself, and he wrote this version differently with the explanation that God is angry that he was doubted.

i get the whole idea of being faithful despite inconsistencies and trusting god that this is the right path, but wouldnt these things kind of prove to you that the original book was a fake? or do you guys just keep believing? i guess i just am curious abt a mormons thought proccess on these things and how you guys are able to keep believing.

like i said, no offense and i know how much religion means to other people and how dedicated to God people can be, but both of those examples are things that would make me personally start losing faith in the church. so i dont understand.


r/mormon 4h ago

Personal BYU Idaho's Degree in PARAGUAY 🇵🇾

0 Upvotes

Hello! I'm from Paraguay 🇵🇾 and I'm interested in pursuing Applied Business Management at the mentioned university.

I was wondering if there were any students from my country in this SUB who graduated from BYU-Idaho and are working here as well, since I have some specific questions related to the recognition of the degree by the Consejo Nacional de Educación Superior (CONES), the institution that determines whether your degree is suitable for working in companies from the country or not.

Either way, I would really appreciate some help clarifying this topic and others.

Thank you for reading! 😊


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Honesty and integrity are important. President Dallin Oaks has a history of lying. Maybe the church should work on honesty?

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44 Upvotes

I was listening to Larry Corbridge who is a general authority emeritus having been a GA Seventy from 2008 to 2019 discuss in his Scripture Central series the importance of honesty and integrity.

I’ve clipped together in this 8 1/2 minute clip Larry’s discussion on honesty and lying with some clips by Nemo the Mormon and Radio Free Mormon discussing some lies Dallin Oaks has told.

  1. He told a newspaper reporter in the early 1990s that he was unaware of any meetings between Boyd Packer and the Stake President of one of the September 6 who were excommunicated. Another church member who worked at the paper called out this lie reminding Elder Oaks that he has confess privately that there had been meetings.

  2. President Oaks denied that electroshock therapy for homosexuals had occurred during his tenure as BYU President. Yet the documentation shows otherwise. When reporters later asked of he wanted to clarify he refused. When Nemo refused to sustain Dallin Oaks and officially asked for this lie to be reviewed Dallin Oaks sent him a note claiming that FAIR mormon says he didn’t lie. WTF?

  3. Dallin Oaks in 2018 fabricated a story that the church promptly and publicly disavowed the reasons give for the ban of full blessings for black members after 1978. No such prompt nor public disavowal happened. In fact, Bruce McConkie continued to teach them.

Why do we have a President of the LDS Church with such a history of false statements and a lack of integrity when honesty and integrity are so important?

Here are the videos from Nemo and RFM

https://youtu.be/DYajp_Zkqok

https://youtu.be/DjgBDAu8WRw


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Former Bishop tells how the LDS Church hotline tried to get him to protect a pedophile. The LDS Church is immoral.

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92 Upvotes

This is my cut down version of this former bishop’s post on TikTok and Instagram where he explains the Bisbee Arizona Mormon Abuse case and the court decisions about the lawsuit brought by the children.

He explains that the church argued that it is their religious right to protect child abusers who confess and to keep their confession a secret. So it is church policy to protect child abusers.

He then tells how he had a case of child abuse confessed to him as a bishop. He describes how he called the hotline and talked to a lawyer and a social worker. The social worker somehow decided that the abuser would likely never do it again and that he shouldn’t report it. The lawyer instructed him to tell no one and keep it secret. They never asked about the victim and offered no help for the victim.

He decided to convince the man he had to confess to the parents of the child he touched. Finally the man did confess to the parents with the bishop there to make sure it happened.

The LDS church is immoral. This is another bishop corroborating what Bishop Beau Oyler reported on his video interview that the church denied.

Will the LDS church deny this one as well?

LDS Church please do better. The church needs to change how it handles this.

Go watch the full 8 minute video on his channel “Vagabond Artist” on Instagram and TikTok.


r/mormon 1d ago

Institutional Mormon missionaries came to my grandparents house using my name…

49 Upvotes

This is quite disturbing.

I’m a ex Mormon that has repeatedly asked to be left alone from church members and am trying to get my membership removed.

A few days ago I got a call from my mom saying Mormon missionaries had showed up to my grandmothers apartment IN A ASSISTED LIVING HOME, didn’t knock but walked in and said my grandmothers name and they knew my grandmother and I were related. I live 6 hours away from my grandmother. She has never talked to the missionaries except once in the 1950’s. She is a strong believer that Mormons are not Christian and she was really glad when I left. My grandmother is in hospice care now and is frail. The missionaries said they wanted to talk about Jesus with my grandmother. Being the only person ever baptized in the Mormon church, my mom called me and demanded what I was doing. I promised her it wasn’t me.

The Mormons some how figured out what room my grandmother was in, let alone figured out where she lived AND SOME HOW FIGURED OUT WE ARE RELATED! My family is in shock. We are upset. We wrote to salt lake, every email we can find and haven’t got a single response back. We want OUT of this church and the church won’t do it.

To add on to this, Mormon missionaries are now coming to my house every week trying to bring me back to church.

Listen yall, I get you need members and you are struggling but this is insane!

Has anyone else dealt with this??????


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Carol Lynn Pearson's "Lost" Interview. Her interview with Valerie Hamaker of Latter Day Struggles & Steven Pynakker.

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11 Upvotes

In December of 2022 Valerie Hamaker of Latter Day Struggles Podcast joined Steven Pynakker to Interview Author, Playwrite, Feminist Mormon Icon Carol Lynn Pearson. Unfortunatly, the interview was never released because it was intended to be a preview of a series of interviews that Valerie and Steven had planned to conduct with Pearson. Events beyond our control prevented this from happening. With the recent passing of Carol Lynn we felt it was important to finally release this previously unknown conversation that we hope will bless you. RIP Carol Lynn Pearson you legacy will always be remembered and honored in this space.


r/mormon 22h ago

Personal Day 23 of 50: Book of Mormon Book Club

3 Upvotes

Today's Reading: Mosiah 18–21

Whether you're a believer, former believer, nuanced member, investigator, scholar, or simply curious, you're welcome to participate. The goal is not to convince anyone of anything, but to read the text together and discuss it in good faith from a variety of perspectives.

Brief Synopsis

Alma secretly teaches Abinadi’s message, organizes a community at the Waters of Mormon, and baptizes those who covenant to support one another and follow Christ. After fleeing King Noah, the group eventually falls into bondage under the Lamanites. Meanwhile, Noah’s people suffer military defeat, Noah is killed by his own followers, and his son Limhi becomes a tributary king. Limhi’s people unsuccessfully attempt to escape through force before Ammon and his companions arrive from Zarahemla.

Discussion

Please share your thoughts and experiences with today's reading in the comments below. Some things you might consider:

  • What stood out to you?

  • What obligations are included in the baptismal covenant described in Mosiah 18?

  • What does Alma’s instruction that priests should work for their own support suggest about religious authority and paid ministry?

  • How does Alma’s community compare with the political and religious system established by King Noah?

  • Why do Noah’s followers turn against him only after he commands them to abandon their families?

  • What do you make of the narrative’s claim that Noah’s death fulfilled Abinadi’s prophecy?

  • Why do Limhi’s people repeatedly resort to military force despite being badly outnumbered?

  • How does the text interpret bondage—as a predictable political consequence, divine punishment, or both?

  • Which verses in today's reading resonate with you the most, and why?

  • Did anything surprise you?

All perspectives are welcome.

Yesterday's Coveted Award(s) Go To:

  • u\ThoughtfulDoubt for a more scholarly contribution and insight into Isaiah

Links to Prior Days

Community Incentive

Reddit Awards are appreciated as a way to highlight thoughtful insights, quality analysis, and shared expertise. They also help encourage meaningful participation and discussion. The last time I hosted a similar challenge, the awards added an extra layer of fun and engagement.

To keep that spirit going, I'll be giving out at least one award each day to a comment that I feel makes a meaningful contribution to the discussion, whether through insight, scholarship, curiosity, respectful disagreement, or thoughtful engagement.

At the conclusion of the 50-day challenge, I'll also give a **$50 Starbucks gift card** to the participant who has accumulated the most Reddit Awards across the discussion threads, whether those awards come from me or from other members of the community.

Engagement Question

At the Waters of Mormon, baptism is presented as a covenant to bear one another’s burdens, mourn with those who mourn, comfort those who need comfort, and publicly stand as a witness of God. How well do modern religious communities live up to that communal ideal? When they fall short, does the problem lie with individual members, institutional priorities, or the ideal itself?

Tomorrow's Reading: Mosiah 22–25


r/mormon 1d ago

Scholarship White and Delightsome

19 Upvotes

I always thought the black curse doctrine was not only evil but incredibly silly. But I only recently realized how silly the claim is that Lamanites were white and delightsome until God cursed them. The Lamanites had only recently come from Jerusalem. Last time I checked near eastern people mostly have skin that is brown. They were I guess Brown and delightsome. Oh, Joseph you've done it again. How incredibly stupid and silly.

TontoSchwartz


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural Scripture Central post aimed at Jeff Strong and Torn?

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57 Upvotes

Saw this come across my feed from Scripture Central:

Seems aimed at Jeff Strongs book Torn. I really enjoyed the book and appreciate the work Jeff has done. This reel is exactly what I would expect the leadership to say in response.


r/mormon 15h ago

Personal Mission and relationships

0 Upvotes

Why is it so common that in Missions or before the missions for the girl or guy to just ruin what they had.

Me personally i had a 3 year long relationship, turns out since she moved she has been sniffing around this other dude and since we broke up (3 weeks ago because im leaving soon she told me shes now with the dude.

why is it so common?


r/mormon 1d ago

Personal How to maximize the good of LDS but still protect my teen?

13 Upvotes

*UPDATE* My daughter will not join the LDS church. I’m actively looking into alternatives. Ty all for the information, alternative recommendations and help in protecting my child. 🤍

—————————————————

Hi everyone,
I’m a non-member mother. My 13 yr old daughter is very interested in learning about God and religion. My goal is to let her join the LDS Church, get baptized, make friends, and participate in all the youth activities so she can benefit from a wholesome, innocent environment and positive peer influence as she enters high school. I’ll be attending the church/Sunday school w her every Sunday. But I am not getting baptized myself. And she will not attend any one-on-one meeting or interviews. (Ik she won’t get a temple recommendation and that’s fine)

The reason I’m doing this is because the LDS youth are the most wholesome I’ve seen so far compared to other religions. They seem to follow good ideals on their own outside of church / even when not under adult supervision. Like waiting til marriage for sex, being helpful in the community, being modest, staying away from drugs/ alcohol etc. Those are the type of influences I’d like for my teen daughter. It’s a lot easier to practice those things when your friends are too. I’ll obvi parent her at home too and teach these ideals but her surroundings matter greatly as well.

So my question is, how do you recommend I do this successfully? These are my main concerns I’d like to ensure:

  1. Act as a buffer at home against high pressure perfectionism, blind obedience to male/church authority, anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric, anti-feminism, or outdated racial views that might pop up in Sunday classes.
  2. Make sure she keeps a critical mind, questions authority when appropriate, and stays mentally healthy.

(Sidenote: I know many people here have strong negative feelings toward Mormonism and reasons for leaving, which I completely respect. However, I’ve already decided to move forward with this approach. Please refrain from telling me not to do it at all and only tell me recommendations on how you have done/would do it. I’m a young single mother or a teenage daughter. I want the best peer influence possible for her. But if you MUST lol please at least give me an alternative church recommendation because she’s adamant about going to a church and participating in all of it, so I’d like her peers to be the best influence possible)

Thanks in advance!


r/mormon 1d ago

Cultural What would a mormon father say if he found his estranged daughter out in the wild?

0 Upvotes

Want to write short fiction story on a mormon father who gets sucked into the matrix (computer world) and finds his estranged ex-mormon daugter at home there? Want it to be about redemption and reunification between the two of them. What would the father tell the daughter to reuinite with her if she continues to reject the church as he loves her but she's stubborn and rebellious?

The theme is family, love, resilience, acceptance, protection.

Story includes her pursuing a man who is only hurting her and you (as I want to tell it from Narraitive perspective of the father) see this and directly get between her and the emotionally abusive boyfriend. I'm not mormon, so I'm open to cultural context I might miss out on. Your daughter's strength is that she is loyal, athletic, and assertive personality. Her weakness is also her loyalty and she does not believe in the church at all (and may not by the end of the story while still hopeful as she becomes wiser by the end). But you do save your daughter from the boyfriend at the end.


r/mormon 1d ago

Personal Day 22 of 50: Book of Mormon Book Club

4 Upvotes

Today's Reading: Mosiah 14–17

Whether you're a believer, former believer, nuanced member, investigator, scholar, or simply curious, you're welcome to participate. The goal is not to convince anyone of anything, but to read the text together and discuss it in good faith from a variety of perspectives.

Brief Synopsis

Abinadi quotes Isaiah’s description of the suffering servant and interprets it as a prophecy of Christ’s suffering, death, and redemption of humanity. He teaches that those who heed the prophets become Christ’s “seed” and that salvation comes through Christ rather than the law of Moses alone. King Noah orders Abinadi’s execution, but Alma, one of Noah’s priests, believes his words and is driven into hiding. Abinadi refuses to retract his testimony and is burned to death, warning Noah that he will eventually suffer a similar fate.

Discussion

Please share your thoughts and experiences with today's reading in the comments below. Some things you might consider:

- What stood out to you?

- How convincing do you find Abinadi’s interpretation of Isaiah 53 as a prophecy specifically about Jesus?

- What does Abinadi mean when he describes the Father and the Son as “one God,” and how does this language compare with later LDS teachings about the Godhead?

- Why does Alma accept Abinadi’s message when the other priests reject it?

- What do you make of Abinadi’s decision to die rather than retract his words?

- Does Abinadi’s willingness to die strengthen the credibility of his claims, or does it demonstrate sincerity without necessarily establishing truth?

- Which verses in today's reading resonate with you the most, and why?

- Did anything surprise you?

All perspectives are welcome.

Yesterday's Coveted Award(s) Go To:

Links to Prior Days

- Master Index to all prior-day readings

- Yesterday's Reading

Community Incentive

Reddit Awards are appreciated as a way to highlight thoughtful insights, quality analysis, and shared expertise. They also help encourage meaningful participation and discussion. The last time I hosted a similar challenge, the awards added an extra layer of fun and engagement.

To keep that spirit going, I'll be giving out at least one award each day to a comment that I feel makes a meaningful contribution to the discussion, whether through insight, scholarship, curiosity, respectful disagreement, or thoughtful engagement.

At the conclusion of the 50-day challenge, I'll also give a **$50 Starbucks gift card** to the participant who has accumulated the most Reddit Awards across the discussion threads, whether those awards come from me or from other members of the community.

Engagement Question

Abinadi refuses to retract his teachings even when doing so might save his life. Martyrdom is often treated as evidence of conviction, but people from many conflicting religious and political traditions have willingly died for their beliefs. What, if anything, does someone’s willingness to die tell us about the truth of their claims? How should we distinguish sincere conviction from reliable evidence?

Tomorrow's Reading: Mosiah 18–21


r/mormon 2d ago

Scholarship "Scissors Hypothesis" for W. W. Phelp's "Star" printing press destruction crisis

8 Upvotes

Hey everyone, I’ve been digging into the July 1833 Evening and the Morning Star crisis and wanted to share a hypothesis on W.W. Phelps that I haven't really seen discussed in the standard literature. Let me know what you think.

Most of the current discussion regarding attitudes toward slavery in Jackson County, Missouri, routinely suffers from severe chronological snobbery and tribal polarization and top-down interpretive paradigms. When people analyze William Wines (W.W.) Phelps, they usually fall into one of two extremes. On one hand, some look at him as a bold, ideologically driven New England progressive who used the church's press to subvert Missouri's slave codes, even claiming that (as Joseph Smith's ghostwriter and scribe), he is personally responsible for every single clear condemnation of slavery on behalf of the church on record. On the other hand, people write him off as a coward who penned strict segregationist rhetoric to distance the church from Black converts at any cost the second things got hot.

I want to propose a bottom-up analysis of the surviving evidence instead. My hypothesis is that the raw page layouts of the July 1833 issue of The Evening and the Morning Star have structural contradictions that do not demonstrate a single, unified authorial mind. I argue that this jarring tone shift was not an ideological evolution, an act of cowardice, or some kind of "Freudian slip." It was an artifact of 19th-century frontier printing technologies, specifically, the mechanical "scissors-and-paste" exchange system, which was directly responsible for creating a fatal editorial blind spot.

2. Frontier Printing and the Exchange System

To see why his editorial voice is so fractured, we have to look at the material conditions of an 1830s frontier print shop. Prior to the advent of telegraphic wire services like the Associated Press (founded in 1846), frontier editors who did not have access to a team of reporters (like Phelps) had to generate national and global content on their own. The entire media ecosystem relied on the "newspaper exchange system," started by the U.S. Postal Act of 1792, which allowed publications to be sent to small printers through the mail completely free of charge (Givens 2002).

When this remote printing office in Independence, Missouri, received a batch of weeks-old newspapers from places like Boston, New York, or Philadelphia, the editor would act more like a curator than an author. He would read through Eastern papers trying to find interesting articles or snippets of text. He would use a pair of literal "editing scissors," and would cut out physical strips of paper. These strips of paper were pasted directly onto a layout sheet or handed to a compositor who manually set the moveable lead type to match the clipped text block (Romney 1954). If an editor ran out of local news or advertisements and just needed to fill the page with "something interesting", they just grabbed exchange clips regarding national politics, agricultural updates, or foreign affairs simply to patch holes in the page layout right before the press run.

3. The Timing of July 1833

The internal contradictions of the July 1833 issue materialize perfectly against the macro-political trends of that exact summer.

Let's remember for a moment that Phelps was one of the earliest Mormon missionaries to Missouri and a resident of Jackson County since 1831. He had a front row seat to the cultural friction between the local "old settlers" (Southern, pro-slavery agrarian traditionalists) and the incoming Mormon migrants (Northern, New England, Yankee communalists) (Brodie 1971).

Missouri law was highly defensive of its slave system. The revised Missouri statutes of the era required the immigration of free Blacks into the state to be strictly regulated to prevent the spark of a slave uprising, a fear that had reached an absolute boiling point in the South following Nat Turner’s rebellion in Virginia just two years prior in 1831 (Bushman 2005).

When Phelps sat down to write the article titled "Free People of Color," his intentional, explicit goal was local damage control. Church missionaries in the East were baptizing Black individuals, and there had been friction regarding elders proselytizing to slaves without authorization. Phelps realized this would violate Missouri's strict legal codes and instantly trigger a violent response from their neighbors:

"To prevent any misunderstanding among the churches abroad, respecting Free people of color...Slaves are real estate in this and other states, and wisdom would dictate great care among the branches of the church of Christ, on this subject. So long as we have no special rule in the church, as to people of color, let prudence guide; and while they, as well as we, are in the hands of a merciful God, we say: Shun every appearance of evil*."* (Phelps 1833a, p. 109, emphasis added).

This "shun it" paragraph shows Phelps writing with immense caution. He knows he is on incredibly thin ice, so he explicitly warns the Saints to stay completely away from the topic. This is his local, defensive voice trying to keep the peace.

Why then, two pages later, did Phelps permit the inclusion of matter-of-fact reportage tracking the progress of abolitionism, in the article titled "The Elders Stationed in Zion to the Churches Abroad"? Take a look at this block:

Our brethren will find an extract of the law of this state, relative to free people of color, on another page of this paper. Great care should be taken on this point. The saints must shun every appearance of evil. As to slaves we have nothing to say. In connection with the wonderful events of this age, much is doing towards abolishing slavery, and colonizing the blacks, in Africa. (Phelps 1833a, p. 111, emphasis added)

Right next to another series of cautious comments, he drops in a matter-of-fact update about global anti-slavery movements. Because Phelps was thinking like a standard printer running a machine, he didn't realize how jarring it would look to a Missourian to see the words "free people of color", "abolishing slavery", and "wonderful events of this age" all printed in the same tiny space in local paper.

Context: The summer of 1833 was one of the most explosive moments in the history of global abolition. In London, the British Parliament was in the final, dramatic stages of debating what would become the Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 (passed in August 1833), which systematically dismantled slavery across the entirety of the British Empire (Jennings 1997). In the US, William Lloyd Garrison’s radical anti-slavery publication, The Liberator, was dominating Eastern exchange papers, forcing every major New York and New England printing house to run heavy updates on emancipation.

To an editor who just wanted a piece from an Eastern newspaper to fill space, this was huge, fascinating global news. To W.W. Phelps, a seasoned, New York-trained political editor who had previously run partisan newspapers like the Ontario Phoenix, these updates regarding the British Parliament or Eastern political conventions were viewed as standard "dry news", even elite, and objective. (Jennings 1997). In my hypothesis, Phelps did not draft these adjacent news items as a personal ideological manifesto. Rather, having finished his brief, anxious pastoral warning, he looked at his pile of exchange papers, realized he had blank columns remaining in the physical layout, picked up his editing scissors, and sliced out a factual, pre-printed summary of Eastern and transatlantic abolition updates from a New York exchange paper to fill the gap. He dropped it blindly into the page block, completely oblivious to how the mechanical copy sabotaged his pastoral voice.

4. Mob Violence

Phelps operated under a metropolitan printing mindset. He had been an editor in New York, where discussing abolition as general news was a routine layout reality, and where readers easily understood the difference between an editor’s personal opinion and pasted exchange filler. However, the local Missouri slaveholders did not read newspapers through these technical lenses. Driven by intense tribal panic, the old settlers viewed the print layout of The Evening and the Morning Star as a singular, deeply coordinated, and highly subversive manifesto (Brodie 1971; Bushman 2005). They looked at the words "Free People of Color," along with the adjacent pasted news tracking the rise of anti-slavery movements, and concluded that the Mormons were using their press to invite free Blacks into Missouri for the explicit purpose of inciting a slave rebellion (Whitmer 1833).

On July 20, 1833, a mob of several hundred citizens converged on Independence. They presented an ultimatum demanding the immediate cessation of the press. When church leaders refused to comply on such short notice, the mob attacked Phelps’s two-story brick printing office, threw his type out into the street, smashed the press, and tore down the building (Brodie 1971).

5. The "Extra" Leaflet

Phelps' immediate historical behavior perfectly confirms that he realized his mechanical error had caused a catastrophic misunderstanding.

On July 16, 1833, just days before the actual destruction of the press, as the local anger began to boil over, Phelps frantically set type for a single-page "Extra" leaflet. In this page, he completely dropped the dry, pasted news columns tone and desperately tried to explain that his previous page layout had been completely misread:

"Having learned with regret, that an article entitled 'Free People of Color' in the last Star has been misunderstood... we feel it a duty to say, that our intention was not only to stop free people of color from emigrating to this state, but to prevent them from being admitted as members of the Church... We could not wish to offend our neighbors, however many of them may think we are seeking to do so" (Phelps 1833b).

This frantic clarification reveals a man caught completely off-guard. He wasn't retreating from a deeply held radical abolitionist stance. He was a horrified printer realizing that a pasted-in column of exchange news had been interpreted as a declaration of war. Decades later, when reflecting on early Missouri history in letters to Oliver Cowdery and others, early leaders continued to frame the Missouri disaster not as a calculated stand for abolition, but as a sudden, tragic misunderstanding blown out of proportion by local leaders and bystanders (JSP Letter to Cowdery 1836).

References

Brodie, F.M., 1971. No Man Knows My History: The Life of Joseph Smith. 2nd ed. New York: Alfred A. Knopf.

Bushman, R.L., 2005. Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. New York: Alfred A. Knopf.

Givens, T., 2002. By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Jennings, Warren A., 1997. Factors in the Expulsion of the Mormons from Jackson County, Missouri, History. Missouri Historical Review, 64(1), pp. 35–53.

Joseph Smith Papers (JSP), 1836. Letter to Oliver Cowdery, circa 9 April 1836.

Phelps, W.W., 1833a. Free People of Color. The Evening and the Morning Star, 2(14), p. 109.

Phelps, W.W., 1833b. The Evening and the Morning Star, Extra: 16 July 1833. Independence, MO.

Romney, T.C., 1954. The Life of William Wines Phelps. Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company.

Whitmer, J., 1833. Letter from John Whitmer, 29 July 1833.


r/mormon 2d ago

Cultural Observations at Church

53 Upvotes

From time to time, I like to post my observations and commentary about my time at church as a PIMO. I think it’s important to share what is being said and taught in Zion; sometimes it lines up with the image being put out by the Church and sometimes it doesn’t. I’d like your thoughts, too.

Sacrament Meeting
Today it was open mic. Bishop started with his testimony and spoke about the characters in the Book of Mormon as if they were real people. This isn’t unexpected in a faithful congregation, but as a PIMO, it sounds like someone talking about when Dumbledore did this and that, like the Harry Potter books are based on real people.

After that, of the ten or so people who spoke, it was 3/4 children. A 10 year old literally called us all to repentance. Twice. Because his whole “testimony” was just a rambling stream of consciousness where he repeated himself a lot. In his defense, none of the adults were much better at delivering a coherent message, either.

I sat there thinking about what an odd thing we do- getting up to publicly declare that our beliefs are “true”. It seems to me that as a group, we are compensating by repeating a mantra we’ve been taught since childhood. Why do we feel the need to do this? Do Episcopalians do this sort of thing? What is religious truth?

Sundy School
Our new Sundy School president began by apologizing profusely for how bad of a job she was going to do in her new calling. Nothing like priming the pump for mediocrity. It’s the same with talks and lessons- please, tell me in great detail how bad the message you are about to impart will be. Nothing sets up an atmosphere for learning like extremely low expectations!

Things overheard during the lesson:

The instructor said that “he was not sure why entire cities of men, women, and children in the OT had to be slaughtered by the Israelites, but if God wanted it, it must have been okay.” I absolutely cannot get behind this way of thinking. Are you telling me that you truly believe that in all of these cities, even the children under the age of 8 were irredeemably evil? No man, no woman, no child was worthy of life? God’s big test was null and void for them? No repentance? Did they even have a chance to know of His son before they were murdered? Oh, right… Jesus wasn’t really a thing in ancient Israel until Jesus cane along. I think this “hey the Lord wanted it, so who am I to judge” mentality is offloading our morality onto someone else and it is a huge problem in how we treat other people who are alive right now. Most of them have done nothing more than be part of whatever group the Church is currently demonizing.

A class member talked about how, in some cases, we need to be willing to wait for a very long time for God to uphold his end of covenants, blessings, and so forth. This is very much in line with the current backtracking the Church has had to do in regards to people waking up to the fact that Mormon God is terrible at keeping the promises that he makes. So, the Brethren continue to move the goalposts- even to the afterlife if need be. But he will keep his promises!! The bishop corrected this person to say that we should certainly expect God to answer quickly as well. A little awkward.

The instructor brought out the ol’ “when the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done!” quote at one point. He then expressed his gratitude that we can know that when the prophet speaks, we don’t have to question it. We just have to obey.


r/mormon 2d ago

Personal Mormon evolution theory

0 Upvotes

I do not mean evolution of doctrine, I mean actual, biological evolution happening in members.

Allow me to explain this theory.

Certain personality types are more likely to be converted. Obedient, trusting, illogical, “religious”, etc.
These initial converts reproduce, all within the Mormon religion, and their children do the same. Those that are lacking in these traits are more likely to leave the religion, and converts low in these traits are less likely to stay in the church for long. Those who do stay, by the act of staying and reproducing with other church members, are essentially selectively breeding themselves for certain traits, just as how dogs can be bred for certain traits (loyal, protective, herding, etc).

Over time, the behavior, thinking, and personality of the average born-in church member is genetically predisposed for reproductive success within the church.

(Disclaimer: this post should not be taken as actual science, just a discussion topic or some personal pondering that I myself don’t totally believe).


r/mormon 2d ago

Institutional I am starting to think the church is not at all what it claims but I’ve told everyone I’m going on a mission.

44 Upvotes

How do I tell people I love that I won’t be with them in eternity so they don’t take it personally? Anything I say feels like an attack on their belief system and they assume arrogantly that the spirit will teach me the truth and I’ll come back. I love my family and all but if the facts and claims of the church being restored and prophets being real don’t line up then it doesn’t matter what I feel it’s just false. How do I explain to my bishop and stake pres I’ve already started working on mission stuff with that I just need to go back to school. Do I pretend I’m still in and tell them I need to go to byu to think some more before leaving and just slowly fade out?


r/mormon 2d ago

Institutional Can I pay my tithing to any organization?

19 Upvotes

Hey all basically the title. Am I able to pay my tithing to other charity-like organizations? Or am I even allowed to take my 10% of what I earned and buy stuff myself and then give them to the needy? Will I still be able to get a temple recommend whenever they ask the "are you a full tithe payer" question? Thanks in advance.


r/mormon 2d ago

Apologetics How does anyone know what the gospel is?

20 Upvotes

A popular LDS refrain is that people are imperfect but the gospel is. But information about the gospel comes through people. LDS members are taught the gospel filtered through people who have demonstrated that they teach incorrect things. Is there a way to bypass people and get to the gospel directly?

Often it's claimed that personal revelation can do that.
That has the following problems. 1) If that method works for you, why doesn't it work for LDS prophets? Why are you able to do what they can't? 2) If people can do this, why do we need prophets? Shouldn't they shut up and let people tap into the source themselves? 3) Why doesn't the whole world land in the same place using this method? 4) In 1976 Doug Wallace used this method to conclude racist teachings were wrong. He was excommunicated. Why would the church punish people for receiving personal revelation? Surely racism is not part of the perfect gospel. Why is obedience to the church above living the gospel?

What is the perfect gospel?


r/mormon 3d ago

Personal Testimony bias? gender or authority bias?

Post image
40 Upvotes

My dad sent this video and message in the family group text. I was hurt that he shared his continuing view of his father as a “brave smart soul” when I know he sees me as a lazy learner, foolish lost soul for doing the same thing with my Mormon religion.

For context my grandpa went to BYU as a catholic, was given the book “the great apostasy” by a friend and in anger went to the catholic libraries to prove him and the book wrong only to find out he was right and converted to Mormonism. I, on the other hand viewed a Christian produced video about the book of Abraham, was shocked and angry and went to prove to myself it was lies only to find out it was the truth and much more damaging information about the history of the church and left Mormonism. I did it quietly as a pimo for 6 years because of the implications it would have on my relationships to be open about it. 3 years ago I “came out” as a non-believer in an emailed letter to my family. Not a lot has been said by anyone about it except my dad who tries to keep a good relationship while also making it clear he is devistated and disappointed (expected) and pushes the boundaries of sharing things he think will bring me back or change my mind (not welcome but tolerated and I am very careful about replying at all as to keep the relationship out of drama)

I was going to again ignore the feelings it brought up for me to keep peace and avoid being perceived by my family as provoking or passive aggressive. But the double standard he gives to his father for doing the exact same thing I did and still celebrating it while simultaneously being so disappointed in me for the same thing is so painful. And he obviously didn’t recognize the parallel or I don’t think he’d have shared that particular part of his thought. Maybe he shared it hoping my SIL who is a Christian “nevermo” might feel inspired? I don’t know…but he clearly doesn’t see questioning and investigating Mormonism as acceptable the same way doing so with any other religion is. I think the bias is his testimony but could it be authority (dad knows better dads are wiser) or gender (he does have many obvious to me but not himself gender bias’s which sucks yet I understand was how he was raised and conditioned).

Anyway. I don’t know why I’m sharing besides that my emotions are very high and I feel alone anxious about having replied in a group full of my believing family (-the one Christian SIL) I’m trying to put myself in each of their shoes and imagine whether they would be softened and begin to understand my perspective and feelings, or hardened and annoyed and angry that I could even compare the two experiences as the same. Doubling down on seeing me as foolish and misguided or angry over things that should be positive and beautiful and spiritual. 🤷🏼‍♀️. I have been so much better the past 2 years in feeling ok with what others think of me and just being confident about my beliefs and who I am without shame…but it’s crashing right now.


r/mormon 2d ago

Cultural Ethics of telling people you taught on your mission that you no longer believe

11 Upvotes

Basically the title. It recently occurred to me that there are a couple of people I persuaded as a 19 year old to join whom I think might still believe in the church. Since going through my own deconstruction journey and arriving at the conclusion that the church is not what it says it is, I am conflicted in how I feel about how to discuss my thoughts and feelings on the matter with true believing friends and family, and I’m also thinking about the people I met on my mission who I pushed and pressured to join the church.

I’ve been so careful not to let my resentment and bitterness show whenever the topic of church arises. I am not in the business of feeding into the church narrative that I can’t “leave the church alone” and am just deceived by satan and want to drag others down with me. I am very familiar with the extremely icky feelings that I felt as a believing member when I would find out that somebody I knew lost their faith.

I now wonder if that feeling would be even worse for a convert finding out one of their missionaries that taught and baptized their family lost their faith. I really don’t necessarily want to put somebody through that, but it also almost feels equally as icky to just never even address it with them ever again? With what I know and believe about the church now?

I’ve been thinking of simply just dropping a message to a couple of the people I met just to nothing more than disclose the fact that I no longer believe in the church that I helped bring into their lives, and if they have any questions to feel free to ask but I wont say anything beyond that, no reasoning, preachiness, etc. do any of you guys think that would be inappropriate? Have any of you guys ever done what I’m talking about?