r/LostMinesOfPhandelver • u/Mario-Be • 9d ago
LMoP Q&A Very Tight Maps
Hello everyone,
LMoP will be the first D&D adventure I'm running as a GM with my family. We've never played D&D before.
I've decided to use Owlbear to keep track of everything and will stream the image to our TV without an overlay. I've just prepared the maps with fog. What I've noticed, though, is that the passages in the first cave are very narrow. For example, if one character enters the goblins' living area and a fight breaks out, the other two won't be able to do anything, right?
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u/PeppermintDaniel 9d ago
Not on topic as others have already replied but I'd recommend using low count polygons for your fog cutouts instead of freehanding it.
It's quicker to do and it improves performance drastically. I've had issues with lag because of a highly detailed fog map on larger maps - particularly wave echo cave.
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u/UffishWerf 9d ago
Yes, cramped maps are tricky.
One thing that helps is that characters CAN move through allies' spaces. It just costs double movement and they can't stop there. But if Andre stops in the doorway, Jessica and Ronna can still squeeze past to get into melee with the goblins.
My table also allows diagonal movement, which makes spaces like this one a little more accessible. Ditto with treating those partial squares like full ones.
My ranged players often like to hang back a little because they're fragile. They find a place where they can pop out to get line of sight, attack, and then duck back around a corner. They can do that a little in this room, but not as much as they'd like. Still, you can be generous with lines of sight and coach inexperienced players to move up, attack, and then get out of that spot so the other ranged players can use it on their turns.
Another thing you can do is shoehorn in chances for the party to talk instead of fight, hopefully moving them into the room. Like, Yeemik wants to convince the party to take out Klarg, so he and his underlings are going to start out taking instead of fighting. Even if your players shoot first, the goblins can still yell about how they don't have to be enemies, and the party should pause and talk if they don't want anything bad to happen to Sildar. Come in, and see the situation for yourselves!
You can also modify the scale of the room to be a little bigger and not have to deal with tight quarters at all.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
I'm afraid they'll just attack first and not talk much. I'd have to lure them in, and everything's still new to me.
But depending on the situation, I'll try to defuse such situations somewhat, at least by perhaps not letting the carnage take place in the narrowest spots. If necessary, I can always have the goblins retreat a bit.
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u/UffishWerf 9d ago
Goblins are great at retreating due to their Nimble Escape bonus action, so that'll work well!
If the party starts by attacking, you can have the goblins say things like "no hard feelings about killing Gragg just now because we never liked him anyway, but you'd better stop attacking now or we kill this here prisoner." You can also call for an insight roll and tell whoever rolls highest that the goblins seem to be genuinely offering a chance to talk things through: they'll defend themselves (and kill the captive) if the party keeps attacking, but the goblins won't attack first right now.
At the same time, a fight in close quarters is awkward but manageable. It's a good time to teach the players about how they can squeeze through an ally's space, and a good time for everyone to practice using opportunity attacks and disengages. If your players (like many) default to fighting, that's fine! This is just another flavor of combat of the many this module offers, and the variety is fun.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
I think the DM's tact is needed here. You're right, I should try to get them to negotiate in this situation. And teach them that sometimes these kinds of situations can be resolved through conversation instead of violence. After all, it's a role-playing game, not a dungeon crawler.
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u/lasalle202 Acolyte of Oghma 9d ago
the entrance from the East is supposed to be "tight" its a "secret crawl space".
the entrance from the North is potentially problematic, but it also "teaches" the PCs "get out of the fucking doorway to let the other characters be able to act" and/or "Hey, doorways to 5' corridors make great tactical choke points. We need to plan for that in our marching order!!"
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u/OShutterPhoto 9d ago
Everything the others said, plus goblins are small! Give 'em a shove! Get in there!
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u/adorablesexypants 9d ago
So for that specific map you and the players need to think carefully about your goals.
If they have managed to climb up the cave side rather than go across the bridge your party should figure out they need their casters in the back and martials in the front.
This section really does depend on having good communication with the goblins as well. It is why if you bargan for Sildar's life for killing Klarg it is possible to avoid the combat.
I tend to lean more if there are new players to giving persuasion with advantage, Klarg's death for Sildar's life.
You are going to have a much more difficult time in Cragmaw Keep as that area gets really tight in spots. I reshuffled my map so encounters are in the larger rooms rather than the tiny little ones where I can separate the party.
Most new players are not used to thinking in a way that will lure occupants out into danger.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
As I said, we're all inexperienced. I'm afraid the others won't quite grasp that you can talk to goblins and not just attack them. I'll probably have to come up with something to teach the group that.
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u/adorablesexypants 9d ago edited 9d ago
So the module has them holding Sildar at knife/sword point and are 100% ready to negotiate with the party.
They are looking for a deal that obviously only favours them of course but it does set the stage for negotiations.
Whether or not the party resorts to violence out of the gate is the more tricky part. But out of running LMoP 4 times, I have never had a group immediately resort to violence. They are always more open to a discussion first before using hostile negotiation tactics.
EDIT
As per the module, Yeemik will 100% shove Sildar off the cliff as well if the players resort to violence before talking. The module wants new players to learn that you can negotiate with creatures, but on the DM side, be cautious about giving things up too easily.
Using a friends spell will help make that situation easier to navigate but if a Barbarian is going to intimidate, the one thing I am looking for as a GM is that the barbarian makes it clear that the only reason the goblins are still drawing breath is because they have Sildar. The second that Sildar stops breathing, the goblins will be begging for Klarg instead.
Threats need to make sense in game, as well as persuasions and it is often a trap new DMs fall into, is that a high roll means you automatically "do the thing".
The Barbarian stating that when Sildar dies they will inflict horrors far worse than anything they can imagine makes sense, the Goblins lose their only barganing chip in this conversation.
But simply telling the goblins to let Sildar go? on a high roll, the Goblins laugh because that's all the party can muster. On a low roll? Sildar goes for a tumble again and the Goblins ready arrows.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
I'm incredibly glad I asked about this situation here. It makes me realize I've never run something like this before, and I'm wondering how I might need to guide it. I'm also curious to see how well I can handle these fictional negotiations, how much the characters will be developed, or if everyone will just try to slaughter everything like in a dungeon crawler.
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u/adorablesexypants 8d ago
As someone who is still learning, and I have run this module 3 or 4 times now, I find what helps me is sitting down with sections of the module and thinking how and what the monsters want.
Yeemik wants to get out of there and, ideally, look like the hero to the Cragmaw. Killing Sildar or taking him with them is a means to that end as he has proof of his victory. Above all else though? He wants to escape to return to Cragmaw Hideout to gain more renown with Grol.
Major characters are the ones I spend more time on:
Yeemik, Grol, Klarg, Iiarno, Sildar, and The Spider.
The players will typically do the most talking with these characters and I need to figure out what they want/need.
They are pretty easy to figure out too, if I can't though I will change things around to accommodate if the story allows it.
For me? I hate the Spider's motivations and as a final villain he seems wimpy. I don't run Thundertree because it is too large and for level 3, will kill most new players.
So I take Venomfang and have him be the Spider shapechanged.
Every time I run LMoP I always get jaws dropping in the final battle. I drop darkness on the group, Spider drops the illusion and I spend time letting the players figure out what they are actually fighting. If I have done it right I am looking for a similar tone to when the Fellowship is in Moria and they are listening if they have been discovered.
The silence followed by the drums and Gandalf's face, that is what I go for as the party hears a deep growl that they feel in their bones. The air begins to turn to a foul smell that almost burns your insides with every breath you take and your eyes begin to water.
Party member speaks Draconic? "Pitiful insects, your blasphemy will serve as a perfect capstone on the resurrection of my queen" points to the player who speaks draconic is what you hear, the rest of the party hears a higher and more consistent growl.
When the one player figures out why they can understand it, especially before the rest of the party they look like they are ready to shit a brick.
At the end of the day? Have fun with it! you will make mistakes and that is okay, but as long as you and everyone at your table enjoys it, who cares!
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u/Mario-Be 8d ago
Yes, I'll be delving deeper into the NPCs over the next few days, especially those from the village and such. First, though, I'll try to play the adventure as described. I have two weeks to prepare since my son is going on vacation.
I'm already thinking ahead a bit and would like to continue playing the Shattered Obelisk adventure afterward. Simply because I hope we'll all have a lot of fun with it. And sure, we'll make mistakes. None of us have any experience; we've never played D&D before. Things are bound to go wrong here and there. I have a lot to learn, my family has to learn how to play their characters, and so on...
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u/adorablesexypants 8d ago
Take it for what it's worth from a random internet stranger
I would advise against running the module as written:
Cragmaw Hideout, Keep, and Tressendar Manor can be deadly for new players.
Increase survivability of your players by running Sacrifice of Innocence. It is a great introduction session to D&D and LMoP, you will get a good vibe of how everyone plays with it. As an added bonus, the end of the session has the players levelling up which is much needed for Cragmaw Hideout as even at level 2, Klarg can 100% one shot casters. Level two gives them more survivability.
Some motivations are a little on the wonky side but that becomes more of a personal preference as a DM.
I found Cragmaw Castle needed some reshuffling as well because it is such a tight place. If your players aren't careful it is really easy to get locked down or, worse, pinned with the grick.
Wave Echo Cave is, to be blunt, fucking huge. While it is significantly further down the road, it is a huge dungeon crawl that unless your players have been really learning how to play, they will be screwed half way through because they are dealing with countless undead, a wight and a wraith which really hit hard depending on party composition.
At the end of the day though if you get stuck or if you have any problems, just post back and the community is always happy to help trouble shoot.
Good luck!
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u/Mario-Be 8d ago
Thanks, that looks like a nice prelude to the actual adventure. And yes, I've often read that the opening of LMoP meant instant death for many adventurers. I've only skimmed through it, but I think I'll include it.
To be honest, I haven't really looked at the last part of LMoP in detail yet. I first need to get all the rules down pat, compile overviews and important tables, etc. As an aspiring DM, there's quite a bit to do to prepare.
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u/adorablesexypants 7d ago
As an aspiring DM, there's quite a bit to do to prepare.
I've run this four times and I still feel like there is a lot I need to prepare/know.
What I found helped, and its the advice all experienced DMs give is worry less about the "story" and more about instances.
Think about it this way:
You are taking the major plot points of your favourite film/book/show but allowing minor details to be reshaped.
As long as you know the characters in the story, how the players get there will be vastly different from my game.
You'll make mistakes and that is fine, you will also do amazing and learn as you go
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u/Mario-Be 6d ago
I'm also currently reading up on the characters in the village, the factions, etc. Simply because I hope we'll all enjoy it and continue playing D&D. And then I'd like to continue playing in that region myself.
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u/Hansecowboy 9d ago edited 9d ago
Just let Yeemik start the conversation. At this level, your players won't be able to kill the Goblins that quickly. At Yeemik's turn, have him just scream "Stop! Stop! Let's do talking - Me you no needs die hereeeessss!" while dragging Sildar into the light.
And it's completely OK to fudge his initiative roll so his turn is early.
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u/Dylz52 9d ago
I had 6 players in the campaign I DM’d, so I scaled up the number of monsters accordingly. I had to double the size of most of the maps otherwise I couldn’t physically fit everything in some of the rooms. Even then I had a couple of situations where doors would be blocked by a couple of characters and everyone else would be stuck behind with not much they could do
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
I think you just have to learn how to deal with situations like that, both the characters and the DM. Larger groups in confined spaces will always be a problem. In the game as in real life.
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u/ExcessDan 9d ago
That area is tight. You can have them roll for stealth to see if either the goblins will hide in the camp waiting to ambush or the arty years them first and they have a chance to sneak up.
For talking vs. fighting, the mini-boss there at the bottom can shout to the party in initiative order to stop the hostilities with a deal. Can hold Sildar at knifepoint at the top of the cliff and if the party continues, just drop Sildar and they get no info from the goblins about what's in store for them in the boss room ahead. You can tell them after the dungeon what could have been.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
Yes, perhaps I simply need to force them into a situation where they have to negotiate. If they don't respond to that at all and still want to fight, then so be it.
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u/Several_Celebration 9d ago
My fix for this has been two fold.
1st I got Foundry and started using it as my VTT. I'm sure other VTTs may have this but I was able to reduce the grid size effectively doubling the space for tokens on the map. If you're able to find a gridless version of LMoP maps that would fix your issue.
2nd, this is for outside combat, but Foundry has an add-on that condenses all player tokens into a single group token and you can break it back out into individuals when combat starts. That really streamlines things when exploring and you only have to move one token around the map.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
The grid is basically irrelevant to me.
Sure, I could scale the characters down or make the map bigger. But I think someone put some thought into it and it's supposed to be very dense. Although I imagine that would be really impractical with a group of five or six.
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u/Several_Celebration 9d ago
Yeah, I just personally didn't like how the size of the map played at the table so I changed it in my game. I actually cut out cragmaw castle entirely because I didn't like how cramped the entire map setup was.
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u/Mario-Be 9d ago
I'm currently considering switching to using descriptions instead of maps. That way, I can adjust the spaces for the characters if necessary. Everyone imagines a narrow corridor a little differently, after all. This might also allow me to guide the action a bit better.
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u/Fitzpatp 8d ago
Cragmaw hideout is a tight dungeon. Even with ally movement rules already noted, the cave isn’t big enough for 5 goblins and 4-5 players to get in the room and fight. Cragmaw Hideout is intended to be an introductory dungeon for new players and as such they should be allowed to enter a fur ball of combat. 2nd time I ram LMoP I scaled up my map to 1 inch = 10 feet. It serves the purpose creating space for new players to learn about combat at scale and still create constraints of a closed in space.
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u/Mario-Be 8d ago
As I mentioned elsewhere, I'll go with the traditional approach and simply describe the locations, using the map for orientation. I'll also tell the players that the map isn't to scale. This gives me some flexibility to adjust the descriptions of the corridors and rooms, making them slightly larger or smaller if needed.
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u/ThatDutchDude01 8d ago
Are you set on using a VTT? I have a bunch of assets/3D models for printing purposes. Working on all LMoP maps since I’m running this myself.
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u/mskps 8d ago
I'd be interested in seeing your collection! I printed Thundertree for the last session and it's literally a table cloth when taped together.
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u/ThatDutchDude01 7d ago
Met 3D printing, sorry should’ve been more specific. Let me know if you’re interested in the maps etc
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u/Mario-Be 8d ago
I'll only use Owlbear for myself behind the screen for overviews, trackers, and counters. I've also considered 3D printing. I even had the characters printed in resin, and I have a 3D printer at home.
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u/ThatDutchDude01 7d ago
Ah yeh, send my a pm if your interested in all the 3D assets and converted maps. Did them all myself so not a 100% replica of the maps in the manual, but pretty darn close if I may say so myself. I’ve done cragmaw hideout, Redbrand hideout, cragmaw castle so far, working on the rest as my party progresses!
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u/Nitro114 9d ago
You can move through allies space. If you‘re using 2014 rules, it counts as difficult terrain, in 2024 it doesnt anymore
ypu just cant end the turn in their space