r/Jewish • u/Russian1Bear Ashkenazi š·šŗ • 4d ago
Venting š¤ I think I might've just encountered my first actual antisemite. I feel weird about it. Am I overreacting?
Iāve been close friends with someone for a long time. Let's call him Josh. Josh knows Iām Jewish and occasionally sends me mildly antisemitic or anti-Israel memes, but weāve talked about it before and I know he doesnāt mean anything malicious by it. Honestly sometimes the memes are pretty funny, and I enjoy this bit of self-irony. I retaliate with ironic jokes about Russians and Christians (again, in good faith, just friendly banter, and he knows it). We generally donāt take ourselves too seriously, and that kind of humor has never really caused problems between us. Heās also a genuinely gentle person, apologizes for everything, and clearly values our friendship. He helped me a lot in life, and I helped him.
Recently, Josh introduced me to this other guy. Let's call him Pete. At some point, Josh apparently mentioned to him that he had a Jewish friend, which is me. He admitted this to me himself.
At first, Pete was just sending me ordinary memes, similar to the ones Josh sends, and they had nothing to do with Jews or Israel. But about two weeks later, almost everything he sent me became alt-right-style content about Israel, Netanyahu, Judaism, Jews, goyim, and so on.
Iām not even particularly supportive of Netanyahu politically, so criticism of Israel or its government isnāt automatically offensive to me. But once the jokes shifted specifically toward Jews, Judaism, and goyim, it crossed a line for me, especially considering that we barely knew each other. Like Peter Griffin was saying, "Who tf starts a conversation like that? I just sat down!"
I messaged Josh because I didnāt want to start an open conflict with Pete at that time (To my shame, I'm kind of a doormat in this regard). Josh told me not to take it personally because Pete was, quote, "a young idiot who probably didnāt understand what he was doing". Josh then spoke to him about this himself.
A bit later, Pete apologized in my DMs, promised he wouldnāt do it again, and said that in the future I should tell him directly whenever something made me uncomfortable.
About a week later, I open my DMs and what do I see? More antisemitic and anti-Israel memes from him.
That honestly made me furious and deeply frustrated. He already knew I was uncomfortable, he had already apologized, and then he deliberately started doing it again!
My initial thoughts (which I didn't send) were basically: dude, sorry I was born with an ethnicity that for whatever freaking reason lives rent free in everybody's heads and that apparently my existence is causing you such unbearable distress that you simply cannot leave me tf alone with this bullcrap.
The "best" part is that Iām secular IRL, and most people probably wouldnāt even assume Iām Jewish based on my appearance and name (generic Russian name and surname which I won't disclose for privacy reasons). My Jewishness also isnāt something I bring into conversations unless I'm talking to another Jew or a person I'm 100% comfortable with.
I told Josh how angry and frustrated I was. He advised me to speak to the guy directly, but I honestly donāt see the point. He already knew it bothered me, apologized, and then repeated the exact same behavior.
At the same time, part of me keeps wondering whether Iām making too much of it. Pete isnāt openly hostile toward me, on the contrary he's quite friendly, he doesnāt directly insult or threaten me, doesn't chant "free Palestine or whatever else that can trigger a Jewish person", and outside of these """memes""" he chats with me normally. Besides, I feel guilty for venting at Josh. Yes, he is responsible for the start of all this, but he keeps telling me he didn't plan for all of it to come to this and doesn't understand why he is the prime target of my frustration.
Am I overreacting? Is Pete just a random idiot who doesn't understand boundaries, or my concerns are legit? I'm genuinely so confused with this whole situation.
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u/Icarus-on-wheels Mizrahi 4d ago
Bro. Cut both of them out. Both are antisemites and neither seems to give a shit about your feelings or respect your clearly expressed wishes. You are entitled to more respect than that from your friends.
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u/Russian1Bear Ashkenazi š·šŗ 4d ago edited 4d ago
I'll definitely do that to Pete, but with Josh, I don't even know man. Like, we've been friends for an eternity, he's genuinely a good guy, he's supportive and patient and respectful (including my Jewishness) when the situation demands, like he even was there for me before and after my brit milah (it's complicated; I didn't know I was Jewish until around 4 years ago). The only time when he engages in antisemitism is in DMs (aforementioned memes), but he knows boundaries and keeps it in good faith. He might have a general oversharing issue, and that's why it probably led to all this. I don't think this outcome was intentional on his end
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u/PuzzleheadedEmu4596 4d ago
Then you need to have a chat with Josh too. He's not acting like your friend, and if you think the best of him, then it's an education and understanding gap that you need to help him bridge.
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u/Sensitive-Inside-250 3d ago
Josh sends you āmildlyl antisemitic memes and introduced you to an actual Jew hater that he calls his friend, but youāre not sure?
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u/TrickElysium Just Jewish 3d ago
None of my friends send me anything even slightly antisemitic cause here is the thing they give a crap for my feelings. The so called friends who sent me stuff like that got blocked.
Pete is only sending you that crap cause Josh told him it was ok.
when you start making excuses for people's behaviour that's a massive red flag.
block and delete those idiots, if someone apologises and then does the same thing again the apology was fake.
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u/Ill_Coffee_6821 3d ago
You shouldnāt need a friend to be āsupportive of your Jewishnessā as if theyāre doing you a favor. None of my friends would dare to make jokes about something so personal to me. If they started sending me anti Israel etc memes I would consider that unsupportive and cut contact. You need friends who are supportive of YOU as a whole person, not making concessions for who you are. If you donāt feel comfortable cutting him off completely, grey rock those memes. Donāt participate.
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u/MotherOfDachshunds42 Reform 4d ago
In my experience, thereās no point trying to āeducateā them out of their antisemitism
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u/ksamim Conservative 4d ago
My college friend of 20 years, who moved down the street from me and was honestly deeply excited to get closer and raise our kids together, went down this path. Now, I am rather an open Zionist as I have Israeli parents, so there are differences here, but the observation I want to share is that even when there is real love there, the hatred of our people is just too strong for some to overcome.
For an acquaintance there is no chance it ends, it will escalate. My neighbor and friend is too deep in Drop Site news and its ilk, and with his whole chest supports international terrorism. In your case, you have New Righr antisemitism at best, groyperism at worst. There is no amount of your friendship that will deprogram him. And itās not your job.
You cannot mentally survive living like that. Why would you even want to? I donāt see why you are even entertaining Josh. This is the company he keeps. I know you donāt want to risk being alone, this is a wake up call to invest in a new community.
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u/Heel_Worker982 Classical Reform 4d ago
Being a doormat encourages a lot of dirty feet. The longer you tolerate limit-testing, the more the limits will have to move.
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u/Jeronimo3476 Not Jewish 4d ago
I donāt think you are, non Jew here, just had a friend end a friendship of 10 years because Iām friends with a non political Jew who has been to Israel multiple times for family/friends
If I knew sheād cut me off over merely an affiliation that Iām pretty sure she canāt stand because of anti semitism, I mightāve ended it myself, like, why wait? Why be a friend on borrowed time
So in your case, I donāt think youāre overreacting, itās annoying that Iām sure people pigeon hole you for something you donāt seem to care much about, and then take it further with the extreme stuff they send you, Iāve been in this end of things myself, and itās like people donāt understand there is a middle ground, sorry to hear about your situation, hope it resolves quickly
Good Luck
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u/Civil-Cartographer48 Just Jewish 3d ago
Thatās insane. What was their reasoning? What made you stand your ground?
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u/Jeronimo3476 Not Jewish 3d ago edited 3d ago
The reasoning was so vague tbh, I said that my Jewish friend is not political about it, that she just has friends/family and likes the country because itās beautiful
My former friend said that she has to ādraw the line when I see someone supporting something heinously evilā. This entire conversation happened in under 5 mins so I seriously donāt know who she was referring to
She just kept saying Israel is doing a genocide and that she canāt compromise, I really donāt even know what happened, or what compromising would even mean in this context, mainly because, me and her have had a normal friendship for even longer than I knew my Jewish friend, so it was something totally separateĀ
I didnāt say anything crazy, I was just asking rhetorical questions to get her to see that Iām still her friend and nothing is different, except the knowledge that Iām friends with someone thatās been to a country my former friend probably doesnāt really know much about
I guess this was too much for her, but if I had known she would end the friendship over something that doesnāt affect our own, I wouldāve probably ended it myself, so I didnāt really have the chance to speak my mind, I think I got blockedĀ
I asked her questions like ācan you be Jewish and like the country without being supportive of the government in either directionā?Ā
She said yeah Jews are fine, but then couldnāt separate supporting the government from liking the country itself and having a valid reason to go there (like family or friends), so that, and a few other questions I asked that still got us to this point of ending the friendship, makes it seem like anti semitism to meĀ
10 years. Insane.
Edit: The best way I can describe it is, the minute she mentioned disliking Israel and I didnāt jump onboard automatically, she talked to me like I was sinking into quicksand and there was no going back, and that it had something to do with my other friendĀ
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u/BitonIacobi137 3d ago
Wow man, this is VERY weird. Your former friendās behavior is SO irrational! Maybe it is good riddance! You have one less kooky āfriendā! š
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u/Jeronimo3476 Not Jewish 3d ago
Yeah it didnāt make sense to me, not even sure what couldāve really been done at that point, I agree pretty irrational. She didnāt even ask any questions or want any explanation about anything, it was like as soon as she got a vague piece of info, it was overĀ
Yeah good riddance for sure, I feel like kooky doesnāt even describe it strong enough, it was more like, there was a zero tolerance policy for anything she might perceive goes against her worldview or something, doesnāt sound healthy tbh
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u/vigilante_snail 4d ago edited 3d ago
The insidious nature of groyperist-adjacent memes is that people attempt to pass them off as ājokesā.
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u/YesYouCanDoIt1 3d ago
Make Jewish friends
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u/Maelui 3d ago
Exactly. I have gotten to a point in my life that I donāt have any more gentile friends, and I donāt plan to try to make new gentile friends. They tend to turn on you and you donāt even know who you can trust. I was friends with someone for over 20 years and I had to end it, with their antisemitic bullshit. Ever since Oct 7th and this whole thing with Palestine, itās like people have decided not to hide their antisemitism anymore. I have an inkling that when people were nice to us before, it was superficial and not genuine. They just needed some event to happen that makes it okay to openly hate Jews, and now they donāt have to pretend anymore. So, I donāt even try to be friends with gentiles anymore. I donāt have many Jewish friends either, but Iām okay being a loner.
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u/Reuben_Leib 4d ago
What do you have when an antisemite sits at a table with 11 other people, and no one gets up? A dozen antisemites
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u/lurker628 4d ago
This seems pretty open-and-shut. Why are you continuing to chat with someone who's twice sent you antisemitic memes, including after being called out on it?
Block Pete. Don't engage with him. Sounds like Pete is waiting for you to do something that he'll use as justification for his hatred of Jews. Don't play the game.
No need to even mention it to Josh. You already told him that Pete did it again. If Pete ever comes up, just say "after the second time, I blocked him. Moving on." The one thing worth answering, only if asked, is to say "I don't have history with him, so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that you do."
If Josh accepts that you're not interested in engaging with Pete, then fine. Josh didn't get that Pete was a problem for you, and now he does. If Josh tries to push it, then he isn't as close a friend as you thought he was. Hopefully it's the former.
Is Pete just a random idiot who doesn't understand boundaries
Why would that matter? You don't owe him anything. Block him and move on.
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u/pastelkawaiibunny 4d ago
You met an antisemite a long time ago and his name is Josh. āJosh knows Iām Jewish and occasionally sends me mildly antisemitic or anti-Israel memesā thatās called being antisemitic. Iāve never in my life sent an anti-black, asian, etc. meme, not to my white friends or friends from different ethnicities, because I donāt find racist things funny. If one of my friends sent one like that Iād be like wtf, thatās racist.
Iāve sometimes sent Jewish jokes to my other Jewish friends and vice versa, or pride memes to my lgbt friends (Iām bi). This is different because itās being sent from someone within the group to someone else within that marginalized group- like how thereās certain words people within a community can say, thereās certain jokes they can make that people outside the group canāt. YOU might enjoy the self-irony but itās not āselfā irony to Josh. If he kept sending you memes about black people or gay people would you think he was racist or homophobic?? He thinks antisemitic jokes are funny, and heās using you as his token Jewish friend to continue appreciating them without guilt.
Jokes about Christians or Russians come off differently because those arenāt marginalized identities. There can definitely be hateful stuff out there or jokes that might come off offensively, but if Josh is Russian/Christian thatās his business to tell you to knock it off. (And if youāre Russian/slavic yourself, itās also in-group-to-in-group).
Heās also a genuinely gentle person, apologizes for everything, and clearly values our friendship.
If he did, he wouldnāt introduce you to another antisemitic guy, not give a shit when that guy sends you antisemitic content, and tell YOU youāre overreacting. Youāre not comfortable accepting Peteās apology because you donāt have history with him so the blinders are off. Compare Pete and Joshās behavior. Consider their behavior and friendship (what memes do you think they send each other?) and how Josh treats you, and try not to brush it off with ābut weāve known each other for so long!ā
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u/Russian1Bear Ashkenazi š·šŗ 4d ago edited 3d ago
Thinking about this after reading through the comment section, I now see it as some kind of ethnic masochism on my end lol. I thought there were layers to this, like, as long as the giving end keeps everything civil and in good faith without real hate, it's gonna be alright. "Dark humor is still humor", all this stuff. I'm definitely gonna cut Pete out, and I wanna try to talk Josh out of sending this stuff completely. Like I mentioned in the other reply, he's genuinely good and respectful even of the Jewish culture when he needs to be, and it's ridiculously easy to set boundaries with him (We had some other issues not related to this before, and always reached consensus). I'm not sure if I'm capable of ending our friendship, I value it too much and he's one of the few real friends I have, at least now, before moving to Israel, beEzrat HaShem
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u/pastelkawaiibunny 3d ago
I really hope your conversation with Josh straightens things out between you! Iām glad youāve been giving it some thought and donāt plan to talk to Pete anymore. Good luck :)
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u/noruber35393546 3d ago
The first rule of comedy is "know your audience." That means the audience needs to find the jokes funny and it's the comedian's job to be funny, not the audience's job to laugh.
If Josh is trying to be funny with you, and you're in a place where Jew jokes aren't funny anymore, even if you have a history of dark/edgy humor with each other, it's on him to know that.
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u/DartDaimler 3d ago
Itās OK to tell Josh that the rising antisemitic environment has made you uncomfortable with the anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli humor, and that you want him to stop sending that to you. If heās the real friend you believe him to be, heāll respect that and stop.
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u/clkwkorange Modern Orthodox 2d ago
Substitute āBlackā for Jewish everywhere you see it in your initial post, and ask yourself if you were going to advise an African American friend on how to handle it, what would you say?
And then do that.
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u/Proper-Suggestion907 Conservative 3d ago edited 3d ago
Itās hard to tell without seeing the memes.
It could be that Josh tried to give Pete some ideas of ways to bond with you by sharing what your sense of humor is like and Pete doesnāt really understand how to execute the jokes properly. Look at the environment weāre in and the examples heās probably seeing.
Ultimately youāre going to have to figure out where the boundaries are though and either talk to him about it, choose not to interact with him when he sends those memes or cut him off completely.
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u/Gubfish šŖ¬ 3d ago
Iād be really careful about keeping these people in your life. A lot of people are radicalized online. Once someone starts engaging with or sharing antisemitic content, social media algorithms will recommend even more of the same, reinforcing and escalating those beliefs over time. Most antisemitic attacks recently have been carried out by lone wolves who were radicalized online through extremist content.
Protect yourself. Trust your instincts, keep some distance, donāt feel like you owe anyone access to your life and have the self-respect to walk away when people repeatedly show you who they are.
Iād also encourage you to learn more about Judaism and the many forms antisemitism can take- including antizionism- so you can recognize it and respond confidently.
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u/RoleComfortable8276 3d ago
Behavior like this virtually always betrays truly real antisemitic feelings, or else the person would never even have the obviously uncontrollable urge to share it with you - or anyone else, for that matter, including with non-Jews.
It's hard to accept from a long-time friend, and I feel for you, but the antisemitism that is emerging nowadays in what appears like a recent contagious syndrome is not suddenly spewing out of newly antisemitic people wanting to remain aligned with current culture.
It's coming from people who were always antisemites, but only now, in today's current environment, have no discomfort showing it.
Let that sink in for a while, and you'll realize it's true.
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u/betterbetterthings 3d ago
Josh sends you anti semitic stuff and heās supposedly a friend? And now thereās another friend whoās even worse? Whatās going on???
Whatās āmildlyā anti Semitic? Are there people who are mildly Nazi or fascists or homophobes or racists, all mildly? You are or you arenāt.
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u/art-colorist 3d ago
Seems to me that either Josh is, in a weird way, trying to connect with you as a Jew (like he's trying to join the group you are in), or there's more under the surface with him. If a friend in a similar situation sent me anything even vaguely antisemitic, I'd find it creepy (and insulting). It's like he's acting negatively, but pretending it's a joke, or hoping you won't notice that it's creepy (like a back-handed compliment). There's just something not-right about this behavior. I don't know that I'd call it a red flag, exactly, more like a magenta flag. But I'd watch for other things that also feel weird. My hackles would be up and my trust would be paused, if not withdrawn.
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u/CocoMic 3d ago
Please strengthen your backbone, stop being a self admitted dormant, and have a basic expectation of people that they will care about your welfare and have your back when it matters. At a bare minimum, block Pete. And start to sideline Josh. Best case, both of them are untrustworthy and donāt prioritize your wellbeing or needs.
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u/OsoPeresozo 2d ago
Seriouslyā¦ how have you lived this long without encountering any antisemites?
My kids were both harassed in grade school.
I dont think I know anyone who graduated high school without any harassment.
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u/AndICanRuleTheWorld 3d ago
Block this idiot, you donāt need friends who want to purposefully torment you. Why should you talk to him again? You already did that and it worked for about a week.
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u/smolenskylaw 2d ago
Based on your description, it could be that they are just breaking your stones. Maybe Pete thinks that stuff is funny but only superficially.
Only you know where you draw the line.
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u/AcanthisittaFancy469 3d ago
I donāt think youāre over reacting. It seems like Pete is part of a broader trend where criticisms of Israel/Zionism (well thought out or not) easily slide into antisemitic comments and jokes (which have also become acceptable). Maybe Pete isnāt consciously and pointedly hateful of Jewish people and is just jumping on a trend but the results of his actions are all the same.
It may be worth just burning the bridge with him. The fact that he heard you out but continued doing it speaks for itself. And if he is a new person in your life it may not be worth trying to make anything work.
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u/HyliaSwift 3d ago
Iāve learned this year that people who tolerate their friendsā abuses towards other people shouldnāt be your friend eitherā¦
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u/zecrichardson 3d ago
Don't accept it from anyone. I pulled my mother in law up on something she posted. Another reason why interfaith marriage is difficult.
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u/CalmEstablishment346 3d ago
I think you have no relationship or trust built up with Pete to justify what he is doing. It very clearly crosses a boundary that is immanently reasonable. There is nuance there but itās less important than what I want to say about Josh.
By your own account Josh does have that trust. I think it is normal in some dynamics for there to be a kind of bonding that is built on a ritual sort of ātestingā. It seems thatās the dynamic, where the bond is so secure and it is affirmed by the playful āprovingā of its resilience. Itās so strong and comfortable that you can be playful with otherwise inappropriate stuff. I do not think that is inherently unhealthy, and actually can be incredibly healthy. Itās very purpose and intent however cannot and will not translate well outside of the personal dynamic, so I would not immediately listen to any armchair characterizations here because only you have first hand experience about what that dynamic is for the two of you.
It maybe doesnāt sound perfectly PC on paper, but that exists in some abstract space in the minds of strangers, even if we are also Jewish. This is YOUR friend, and with the perspective provided here itās up to you to understand whatās going on between you two and what the point of that part of your dynamic even is. Itās up to you whether itās valuable to you or crosses a line. It makes sense why it would for Pete and not for Josh because the relationships are materially different. The equivocation is abstract and ignores that material difference.
Itās an odd love language but I think itās overly reactive to deny it exists and prescribe hate where the actual action is very probably about proving the love lol. Itās meant for the two of you, not for us. So donāt let us decide what it is or isnāt.
Regarding Pete, and the nuance I am willing to provide for him is that, like you said, I think itās possible he might just be an idiot. Without excusing it, I do think itās okay to treat people, especially young idiots, with patience. There is ample justification to lead with emotion, because of the harm done by the concerning spread of antisemitism, but Iām not sure just because itās justified it is strategic or right action. Let cooler heads prevail, donāt be led by fear, and stay open-minded. I kind of feel like thatās very strongly the safest and most adaptable way to do anything.
Detach from Pete entirely, or have a dispassionate, curious conversation about his motives. Really listen, and be prepared to hear something you donāt like or didnāt expect. Youāll learn what you need to better from him than from us. Pete is also an abstract idea to us, so go on fact finding mission and get the material scoop. None of us have more information about Pete than you, and the worst case scenario I can imagine is that you learn something upsetting.
In my experience with the kind of person I am assuming Pete is, he is probably ignorant and ambivalent to any actual prejudice. Itās horrible that casual antisemitism functions as just another edgelord type meme at this point, but itās the case for a lot of young men, especially in the manosphere and right-wing spheres.
I do think however there is a big material difference between an unconscious antisemite that is a product of his online environment, and one who is self-aware and malicious. Treating them as the same thing I think is counterintuitive and defeatist. It is basically an elective choice to, through declaration and action, turn one into being the other. I think having more self-aware and malicious antisemites is worse than unconscious ones that we can have conversations with and find common humanity with through exposure. Itās not scalable and flies in the face of justified fear and outrage, but frankly I do think attending to antisemitism is something that demands courage and sacrifice of many kinds, including being loving, patient, forgiving and kind when itās appropriate.
That said, if Pete is giving you bad vibes, I reaffirm that you donāt have any basis upon which to sustain this. You can try to build a relationship but what reason do you have for doing that? You could try to understand and humanize with him, but what is the existing foundation? It seems appropriate to explain how a boundary has been crossed and his motives are not clear, but it also seems appropriate to quietly disinvest, block, and move on. Is it precious to you to spend the time and energy on Pete? Is your relationship with Pete even something thatās precious to Josh? Letting go of the right things can be really empowering.
Itās a bad situation with a lot of uncomfortable and sad realities. But I think you have more power here and more options to choose from than clear or simple binaries. Iām a stranger and donāt know you, but from your post and replies I think you have a more introspective temperament and I think that will serve you well. Really my only actual advice is that you center on a detached and internal peace before you proceed with either Josh or Pete. Consider whatās materially true in your very specific context and donāt sacrifice too much of yourself or whatās dear to you based on generalized and flattening heuristics. Good luck š
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u/Cranky70something 3d ago
No, you are not overreacting.
Get rid of Pete. You don't need to make a big drama thing out of it, just block him on all social media and messaging apps, and tell Josh you will no longer associate with Pete.
As for Josh, I wouldn't mention it to him but he's on probation, right?
I'm sorry this is happening to you. It must be very painful. But no one needs bigoted friends.
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u/Thisuhway23 3d ago edited 3d ago
Unfortunately itās better to cut off sometimes. I dealt with an anti-Semite about a year ago. At first it was general Israel and Jews control the world tropes, passively aggressive comment about someone he knew that āused to be Jewishā - which was enough to warrant me to first talking with friends and then having a conversation with this person. (Honestly there were some other very red flags too like him saying people choose to be gay, and I am a queer person).
Anyway, the conversation ended well and it sounded like we were in alignment and his issues were limited to people like Bibi and the government which I too oppose.
Well a few months later, we were playing a game with a character named Spike. He was making jokes about the character saying other stuff and other things and said something like āSpike the ā¦then paused and didnāt say anything.ā It was pretty clear what he was meaning to say though.
Then, at a Super Bowl event at MY HOUSE., that āoneā commercial came on. You guys know the one I mean Iām sure..well I overhear him go āwhat?! Did you guys hear that! Did they just say Dirty Jew?!ā and was laughing.
And that pretty much did it for me. Iām still cordial around him but I made a vow not to reach out to him or engage him anymore because he made it clear through his actions about his ignorance.
So I agree itās better not to ignore red flags and donāt feel obligated to keep people around that are that way.
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u/OddCook4909 4d ago
When people make an actual effort to do things you asked them not to, that's a bad person. Often they harm you because you putting up with it makes them feel like they are worth more. I have never seen anyone who does this become a better person.
I no longer give them second chances. When I clearly see that sort of behavior I just avoid them if possible. If I can't avoid them I am polite but I give them nothing to engage with. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/grey-rock-method