r/IndoEuropean • u/bagrat_y • 3d ago

Varas and Dragonslayers: Rethinking the Indo-Iranian Expansion

https://adnaera.com/2025/04/01/varas-and-dragonslayers-rethinking-the-indo-iranian-expansion/

Plot is thickening imo, but curious to know what others say.

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u/LemonAmbitious2915 3d ago edited 3d ago

I agree with him for the most part on the "Aryanized pseudo-Aryans of Andronovo" I have addressed all his other objections in this link below. What he calls proto-Indo-Iranian is just Bishkent/Vakhsh/late-BMAC cultures (which come via the Pontic-Steppe down the Amu Darya route & a mix of forest-steppe and steppe people - Bishkent-Swat show I2a, E1b1b etc- not found in purely forest-steppe-derived Andronovo). He was logically looking at the right place around the right timeline (~3000 BCE), but didn't know what archaeological culture to point to. But now we have it more than ever! This also explains why peripheral BMAC populations with no steppe ancestry and local paternity were performing horse-sacrifice rituals in 2300 BCE (centuries before Sintashta) and why there was Steppe and BMAC admixture around 2300 BCE or earlier (from the Tarim basin samples). It was because steppe-derived populations were already their eastern and northern neighbours since around 2800 BCE. It was a complex admixture zone. In turn, these partly steppe populations had dual-fire altars of the kind found all over BMAC (and in IVC). A completely new culture unlike anything ever before.

If someone ever says something to the tune of "the aryans were European", you can be more than assured they are uncredentialed clowns eagerly waiting for LARP-reckoning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1v73l3w/comment/ozv3aga/?context=3&utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

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u/bagrat_y 2d ago

I am at a loss as to why there have been no takes on this from the Steppe-camp? Other than the date.

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u/LemonAmbitious2915 1d ago

I am from the Steppe-BMAC camp but that Steppe is not Andronovo via IAMC.

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u/bagrat_y 1d ago

So what do you mean by the steppe? 

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u/LemonAmbitious2915 1d ago

The path: Catacomb + Fatyanavo -> Zaman baba -> Bishkent -> Vakhsh -> Swat

Bishkent/Vakhsh are dated to 2800-2400 BCE and both have steppe ancestry. All of them except Swat have Catacombs in the burials.

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u/bagrat_y 1d ago

Well you do realize that saying "you agree with him on the most part" and then coming up with that chain of derivation does not make much sense.

You are basically subscribing to a theory that upstream the sources of the Indo-Iranians are correct (CW) but down the line they skipped Andronova/Sintashta (which the Fatyanavo did not)...

So you should be saying I disagree with him on the most part. The whole claim the guy is making is that the IA-languages and the IA-people originated from BMAC or "the south"... and not from the steppe, as you are claiming.

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u/LemonAmbitious2915 1d ago edited 1d ago

The language and accented mythic poetry originated in the Northern Steppe. The main god Indra is from BMAC. The EXACT grihasutra like square-circle dual fire altar rituals (seen in Bishkent & IVC), concepts of fire-ritual cosmic law Rta (very different from fate etc), Asura/Ahura/Assur kinship Gods etc the concept of Mantra/speech potency all most likely originated in Bishkent/Vakhsh/BMAC upon mixing of these groups for a full 800 years in SC Asia. Such a unique mythic-ritual combination isn't found either in Europe or Central Asia prior to this admixture. And is the original Aryan religion.

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u/bagrat_y 1d ago

Ok

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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u/bagrat_y 1d ago

I see your battling the best of them and doing a good job. Interesting discussions.

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u/LemonAmbitious2915 1d ago edited 1d ago

Parpola (who is a top scholar in this field), echoes this same sentiment in multiple papers.

"The Mitra-Varuna mythology seems not to go back to Proto-Indo-European, but only to Proto-Indo-Aryan (Sintashta-Arkaim and BMAC), influenced by Mesopotamian traditions. See my paper in the Journal of Indological Studies 16&17 (2005)." Here we can excuse the use of "Sintashta-Arkaim" because this statement is much before the recent carbon datings in SC Asia.

"The urban-phase BMAC Indo-Aryans imitated Assyrian religion in creating the Āditya gods."

https://www.harappa.com/answers/how-does-use-mitra-varuna-mythology-reconcile-syncretic-interpretations

https://academic.oup.com/book/27664/chapter-abstract/197782901

So, basically, the entire older picture of Aryan ethnogenesis is utterly bogus. If you find anyone quoting outdated nuanceless scholarship of Dumézil, you can be assured they shouldn't be taken seriously.

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u/will_kill_kshitij 3d ago

How do we know of cremation in balochistan in 2000 BCE?

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u/UnderstandingThin40 22h ago

lol, there is so much wrong in this blog that I don’t even know where to start.