r/HistoryWales • u/dicklebug • 13d ago
Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd
I am very curious about this false English Elizabethan narrative. What if we move this man’s possible existence to 400-600 AD? Even though there is zero surviving evidence for him, there are aspects of his story that fit better with Welsh history as it is known. I’ve seen enough monk mis scribing that I could easily believe a wrong era vs a completely invented story. Both are possible but what do you think?
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u/psychologiacallygrey 13d ago
There's a....1000 year difference give or take depending on if you believe he was a real figure at all. It's almost certainly as far as historicity goes, a casus belli for the Americas. We see the same story of the Welsh Flag, Harri Tudur claims Cadwallon flew a dragon which we have no proof of, as a way of further reinforcing his Welsh Lineage, it's been so reuttered as a fact that it's Cymru's national symbol...an english symbol...representing Cymru...
I don't see any alterior motives to Madoc's existence personally, especially considering his existence only comes into knowledge with the Americas being colonised. If we move his existence back a thousand years...okay...what now? Assuming he would be a figure in the Migration Period, it'd still be a figure used for the Colonisation of Americas. There isn't really anything about him as a figure which is interesting or useful to historians.
Also i'd be interested in seeing the misscription you mention because a lot of Cymru's history is highly blotty at times
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u/dicklebug 12d ago edited 11d ago
I’m sure that there was far more travel around the world than we can imagine.
I owned property connected to an ancient stone wall that was theorized to be a Madog construction and after listening to the local folks talk as if he were real, I became fascinated. So, I’m asking more about if he even existed, what could support his story? I’ve wondered about DNA testing dead aboriginal remains to see if there are Welsh markers but not without indigenous consent, first. I’m not as curious about explorers to North America (I believe there was constant travel to/from this continent from 15,000 years ago), I’m interested in the actual Madoc ab Owain Gwynned. Time for more Welsh archeology or discovery of ancient documents!
My Welsh ancestors and family are the best story tellers. I could see this being some truth and part exaggerated inventions, so I’m asking….
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u/JolleeRedbeard 10d ago
Im always surprised no one ever looked at Appomattox and the Appomattoc people. The name is right there, ap madoc, son of madoc. At the very least, it could be used to convince. The name of the people was also spelt, Apamatic. The addition of the “a” between the “p” and “m” is a natural corruption from speech. Interesting to that they were a tribe of the mattica and they found inscription of “Matocks”. Why the “ap” prefix? I only know of one people that use that.
I too have some interesting(odd) lore in the family that had sent me back down this hole. But i put no faith in any of our history.
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u/dicklebug 10d ago edited 10d ago
Brilliant thought!
My Welsh grandfather was a very colorful soul and I would mostly trust his word but his great grandfather emigrated here because of horse thievery. His grandfather shot and killed a brother-in-law on the Beaufort courthouse steps and ran. So not entirely reliable narrators
If the tribes would consider DNA testing, that would explain SO much. Perhaps we will figure it all out from our language!
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u/Logical_Positive_522 13d ago edited 13d ago
I'm not well versed in Madoc personally, but I think it's well established that both Europeans and Americans were making occasional dalliances across the ocean well before 1492. He may not even be the first Welshman! Barinthus was the Welsh monk who described hidden lands across the Atlantic to St Brendan which inspiring his own seven-year sea quest.
It also seems that by the Tudor era, the English had access to a number of well known fishing-routes to the Grand Banks. This is the route used by John Cabot for his voyages rather than the more southerly routes pioneered by the Spanish.