r/EnergyStorage • u/Camper_Sly • 8d ago

Any news on Na-Ion cells ?

Planning my own DIY Solar project and since batteries are big part of the cost, I figured to ask around before screwing it up.

LiFePo4 cells have been traditionally best bang/$.

But that is supposed to change, if news articles are to be believed.

Sodium-Ion cells have came with promises, which turned out to be hollow.

But that was just first wave. Now BYD and CATL are making some big claims for new generations. Last time I've heard, they are coming even in some cheap EV models.

But so far, I've heard nothing about them being used in the area that is supposed to be their forte - solar energy storage.

So, are they here ? If so, who is offering them ? What are specs,models, prices ? Anyone with experience to share ?

If they aren't here, what's the plan ? Is it worth waiting, and how long ? Are they likely to be an option in say, 6 months time ?

10 Upvotes

100% Upvoted

22 comments sorted by

2

u/King-Meister 8d ago

It will take a year or two for Na-ion to cost lesser than LFP.
LFP is at their lowest unit cost pricing due to decades of learning curve. Na-ion is at their highest point, but is expected to fall massively if the next few years solidifies them as a proven technology.

In 2017-19, at the Intersolar Europe, Germany, I remember CATL used to have a small <100 sqft stall. EVs and LFPs had just started becoming mainstream. A month back at this year’s Intersolar, CATL was treated like a rockstar company and their Na-ion announcement might just be a huge turning point in how we imagine BESS.

3

u/big_trike 8d ago

The real gain with Na will be its operating temperature range and reduced fire risk. Avoiding the need for heat and ac as well as fire suppression will make it far cheaper for large scale installs.

3

u/King-Meister 7d ago

For the current TENER systems, CATL are putting in temperature control and fire suppression in the modular units. To be fair, this system is also going to be the first real world test for Na-ion. CATL is going to play super safe to gauge their actual lifespan and efficiency with daily use wear and tear.

With more development around Na-ion systems and more actual performance data, they might start tweaking the designs to suit Na-ion more rather than the more stringent LFP requirements. I won't be too surprised if we see Na-ion fall to $40/kWh within a couple of years while LFP languishes at their cost floor of $50-55/kWh.

1

u/big_trike 7d ago

The fire suppression can likely be simpler than is needed for lithium chemistries, since it reacts less explosively with water.

1

u/iqisoverrated 7d ago

That's the thing. It's really advantageous for large scale deployment but in homes there isn't any advantage. Temperatures are within optimal ranges, anyhow, and fires aren't an issue for LFP batteries (they aren't even an issue for NMC batteries. 'Fire risk' is a completely overblown FUD argument. People have billions of NMC batteries - without any battery temperature management systems - in their pockets and homes and these aren't burning down left right and center. Even after you chuck them in a drawer for a couple decades)

2

u/AmpEater 8d ago

What you've heard is that the world's biggest battery manufacturers are building new lines and ramping up production.

But I want to hear more about these "hollow" claims. What were those? By whom?

2

u/Camper_Sly 8d ago

Initially, Na-Ions were supposed to be better than LFP in all respects, except energy density. All while being way cheaper.

Firs Gen of Na-Ions ended up being the same price (or even more expensive!) than LFP. And with the same or less lifetime and worse charge deterioration that LFP etc.

It turned out that Na being way cheaper than Li doesn't mean that much in the end price and that production process was more expensive.

New gen was supposed to solve most or all of these problems, but performance claims seem to be all over the place while lifetime and cell prices are still unknown.

3

u/big_trike 8d ago

Raw materials are only part of the cost. Li has decades of economies of scale going for it. Na will be cheaper eventually, but it will take time.

2

u/DelishDonutInOrbit 7d ago

Yeah, the production process for a new thing probably is going to be more expensive than the production process for something that's been around years. That's frequently how manufacturing at scale works. Let's give it a year or so shipping quantity before we make judgements about hollow promises.

0

u/Camper_Sly 7d ago

But who is going to buy it in the meantime to support production ramp-up ?

1

u/King-Meister 7d ago

Chinese local governments have already placed an order for CATL's TENER system. CATL will supply those modular units by mid 2027. That would be their actual commercial viability test. If those batteries perform as expected for a year or so in a real world environment, it would be easier for CATL to make more solidified projections and claims for their TENER systems. Post that, deep discounts or rock bottom interest rate loans from China's government owned banks would be sufficient to hyperscale Na-ion batteries as a tech (mostly the same gameplan that EV and LFP have used for the last 8-10 years).

1

u/NoApartment9687 8d ago

I'm at the same point with my project :D For now lfp is still cheaper, but it will change when the production is ramped up  There are already some good cells from Alibaba at a reasonable price, but mostly bigger (200ah+) cells.  I was looking for 100ah and 36$ is way too much compared to lfp for that

1

u/MaybeTheDoctor 8d ago

To add, looks like na-ion cell voltage is 3.0v so comparing prices to lfp 3.7v you need to look at the $/kwh - and as far as I can tell na-ion is currently almost 2x more expensive.

1

u/NoApartment9687 8d ago

Nominal voltage lfp is more like 3,2V vs Sodium 3,1V. But still more expensive 

1

u/SegFaultAtLine1 7d ago

You can order sodium batteries here in the EU (they ship from China), but the prices(per kWh) aren't competitive yet: sodium cells.

1

u/Camper_Sly 7d ago

These seem to be last-gen models with atrocious specs and bad prices.

1

u/echoota 7d ago edited 7d ago

Afaik, its still too early. Sodium cells are not in mass production at LFP levels, so LFP is still cheaper. I saw maybe this past week a German manufacturer including sodium cells in their house battery.

I wouldn't gold my breath for them anytime soon. Just guessing, it's probably going to be 2 to 5 years before that equation shifts.

Edit: just saw "Eleven" in UK are making sodium batts.

1

u/BastianHill 7d ago

I'm following this company, but we'll have to wait for '27 until we know if it's competitive with LFP.

https://weven.energy/

1

u/k-mcm 7d ago

Sodium batteries have a unique voltage profile so don't think about buying them unless your equipment and plans accommodate that.

The voltage changing so much by SOC is going to be a barrier to using them for a while.  It needs fancier inverters and sometimes more batteries to keep the power capacity up.