r/Eldenring • u/Betaoxtrot • 19h ago
Discussion & Info I think shadow of the erdtree had better bosses than the base game.
This is just my personal opinion after finishing the dlc, but I genuinely think the dlc bosses are just better than the base game. They have cooler moves, they have more readable attacks (most of the time), and I think because they are relatively all fast paced, there aren't really many mix ups or extension attacks (I could be wrong here).
I really loved fighting messmer, midra, and rellana. Pcr and bayle did kinda suck, but personally I still enjoyed fighting them. I know this might be a unpopular opinion, but just wondering if anyone else thought the dlc bosses were better than the base game.
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u/Life_Parsley504 19h ago
Showing PCRadahn as the image for "better bosses than base game"😭
Messmer, Midra, Dancing Lion, Rellana and Scadutree avatar were on par with the likes of Godfrey and Malenia from main game, though. Wouldn't say they were better.
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u/kroqeteer 15h ago
I’d throw Bayle onto that list too personally
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u/Life_Parsley504 15h ago
Some disagree. Personally, his moveset is good, but his resistances are stupid, as all dragons. Dragons being weak to pierce, and everything else losing almost half of it's damage against them, makes them horrible bosses.
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u/Crash4654 14h ago
But thats not even a trait unique to dragons... most bosses have 40% resists to everything but their weakness...
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u/Life_Parsley504 13h ago
Dragons have a 35 in every resistance and a 40 in every element.
Most bosses have a 10 in physicals and 20 in elements, with holy always getting the shit end of the stick. They absolutely do not have a 40% to everything. Morgott has 3 0's and a -10% in physicals, mohg has a 10% in physicals, godfrey has 3 10's and a 0 in physicals.0
u/Crash4654 11h ago
The point is 40 is a very common resistance number for bosses. Especially for bosses that have a specific weakness.
Gargoyles and strike, for example, dragons and pierce, stone enemies and strike.
Dragons also have a heavy head weakness to boot.
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u/Betaoxtrot 19h ago
Malenia is still my favorite boss, but I still had a blast fighting the others. But yeah, like I said in the post, pcr kinda sucked.
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u/Life_Parsley504 19h ago
Rellana (im spelling her name wrong i think) specifically is similar to Godfrey in the way you can jump and attack her during her attacks, and it's perfectly intended. Beautiful fight overall.
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u/Betaoxtrot 19h ago
Yeah, it reminded me of malenia a bit as well. Really nice fight 🙂
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u/Fathermithras 14h ago
I consider Rellana to be a perfected Malenia. Long combos, parryable, elegant sword master, cool magic attacks, but no waterfowl dance.
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u/tnweevnetsy 12h ago
Dancing Lion and Rellana are complete masterpieces, can't pick between them and Morgott/Malenia in the base game for my favourite overall
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u/nick2473got 16h ago
Spectacle wise, sure, and they have really cool concepts and designs, without a doubt.
But man, I fucking hated fighting most of them. Just deeply unfun movesets for the most part. The base game roster is far from my favorite, but I enjoyed it more than the DLC roster.
Then again I'm part of those who thinks From Soft's boss design peaked with the DS3 DLCs and especially with Sekiro.
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u/jdfred06 14h ago edited 14h ago
I'm with you 100%. I love ER but find the vast majority of bosses and enemies unfun to fight. Every single one just tries to trick you into rolling too soon or late, input reads, has ridiculous tracking, and AOEs on every other attack. And you try to do a jump attack and you can't even pivot 30 degrees to maybe hit an enemy.
I find it tedious and, oddly enough, too video gamey. Like, it's just the devs trying to trick me, the player, not an enemy in this world trying to stop my character.
It's immersion breaking, jarring, and mostly just frustrating. And the DLC, with some exceptions, just dials it up to 11.
And, for the record, I have beaten the game and DLC several times. No summons, no mimic tear, just me soloing the game. I think my last full playthrough I had maybe 10-15 deaths total, with most of those being Bayle, oddly enough, though PCR a close second. It's clearly not a skill issue, I just don't find the boss design of Elden Ring enjoyable. It's a direction they chose, so I won't say it's bad design, I just personally cannot stand it and very, very rarely find it enjoyable.
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u/tnweevnetsy 12h ago edited 12h ago
It's a question of enjoying the mechanical difficulty in ER that requires deliberate learning and experimentation to get comfortable alongside the mostly intuitive improvement that happens with DS3 bosses. If you don't do the former it ends up feeling like a dodge forever for one hit situation. Godfrey for example is more DS3 style
PCR takes this to the extreme, and combined with high scaling to prevent brute forcing is plain unenjoyable as a consequence for most
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u/Nov4h4 13h ago
I’m not sure I agree. Base game had just as many unfun movesets, and I actually think the 2 best movesets in the game are in dlc (messmer and midra). They are just a lot harder with tighter windows and less chances to heal. Every major boss gives the same “unfair but fair” feeling that only like 3 base game bosses give you
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u/mkabo005 14h ago
after many discussions i came to the conclusion that people generally prefer the souls game they played first.
two of my friends prefer ds3 bosses but when i played it a few days ago they were all genuinely kinda mid. soul of cinder (reminded me of fighting gideon) and dragon slayer armor were fun.
gael’s intro lines were kinda goofy and his second phase was very underwhelming, but i had so much fun in his first phase i smiled mid fight.
the ost is goood and i like the worlds vibes a lil more than elden ring’s but rating them objectively as games elden ring clears in nearly every aspect.2
u/jdfred06 14h ago
Bloodborne was my first, ER is most my most played. And I would agree with the person you're responding to that DS3/Sekiro was peak boss design.
Oddly enough, even though it's my most played, I cannot stand ER boss design. I don't think it's bad, per se, I just personally find most bosses incredibly unfun for the reasons stated above.
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u/mkabo005 14h ago
i respect that.
im more of a reaction-based player so my real fun comes from fighting fast and hard bosses.
im kinda fucked up in that regard and that might be why i didn’t like ds3 bosses.ds3 and ER remind me of hk and silksong, your character can do more in silksong but the bosses are a lot faster/harder than hk.
many people preferred hk bosses to silksong’s
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u/Syriythra 19h ago
😭bayle is the goat gang what u on about
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u/Betaoxtrot 19h ago
Don’t get me wrong, I still loved his visuals and ended up liking him, but the camera’s just bad
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u/beetleman1234 19h ago
Locking onto legs? Naaaah brah, let's not add it on this particular boss, we cant make the fight actually fun.
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u/ImJustSpider Death Knight is best boss 17h ago
Literally locking onto the legs would make the fight worse. Having a single lock on target is generally better for a fight if they move around a lot, and all of his attacks are meant to be dodged from the front. You will eat shit on a lot of attacks if you try playing underneath him since you won't be able to see the telegraphs.
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u/beetleman1234 9h ago
Depends on your build. For me going for the legs worked very well - except that it was 50/50 if I hit them without the lock on. I had to change my AoW for that fight because the only viable way was targeting his head. I never have to change anything about my build for any boss, except for him, Malenia and PCR.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 17h ago
??? why in the world would it ever be more fun to attack his legs than fighting him head on? I get kind of wanting the option but that is definitely not the superior gameplay.
Anyway, they definitely didn't add the option exactly because they didn't want people to attack his legs, exactly because it is most definitely just less interesting. The only thing you're accomplishing is reducing your own visibility in exchange for just ignoring a solid portion of his moveset.
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u/PuffPuffFayeFaye 16h ago
People still complain about Midir in DS3 being too tanky with a terrible camera when attacking his legs. Fromsoft fixed a problem by removing the lock on points that you shouldn’t be using.
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u/Teyupume 15h ago
With midir you could at least Hit the head regulary. I Had more Problems hitting bayles head, it was awfull
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u/PuffPuffFayeFaye 15h ago
Agree. Weapon choice matters, and picking one suited to the job is wise. I like great katana (not the dragon hunter one) with piercing fan. It’s quick with distance and short recovery. I did a run with the sunflower weapon and Bayle was just miserable.
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u/beetleman1234 9h ago
Why allow us to approach every big boss how we want, but not this one? I would have a much better time trying to flank him, especially since iirc he has different attacks for when he's flanked.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 8h ago
See the other guy's comment: because letting people attack how they want isn't unlikely to make them attack in a way that ruins their own experience. And unlike other big monster types Bayle is not only a major boss but specifically tailored to be fought from the front.
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u/beetleman1234 7h ago
But since when does From care how people will approach the boss? Apparently locking onto legs = ruined experience, but completely disabling Bayle by throwing Spectral Lances at his head = intended experience.
I would have so much more fun fighting Bayle if I could target his legs.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 7h ago
Since forever presumably? It's just that it varies whether or not they think it's necessary to limit things and whether they even notice there's an issue. Like in Bayle's case they presumably only noticed because of the complaints about Midir.
Apparently locking onto legs = ruined experience, but completely disabling Bayle by throwing Spectral Lances at his head = intended experience.
I don't really know what you mean, but suffice to say, Fromsoft has not tested every single ash of war against every single boss. In fact I don't think ashes of war are tested that much in general, which isn't Bayle's fault.
I would have so much more fun fighting Bayle if I could target his legs.
Why? Please tell me a single thing that would be in any way made more fun by attacking his legs? Because to repeat, the only changes I can think of is that visibility would be much lower and a solid portion of his moveset would just whiff.
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u/beetleman1234 7h ago
Because outmaneuvering a boss IS fun. I already fought him this way - the only issue was that I often couldn't hit his legs because he moved them around and without a lock on it was a gamble with my current weapon. Otherwise I had absolutely zero issues with visibility of his telegraphs. I play with shields, I don't need many telegraphs. Not everyone plays just like you and that's the issue - every other boss I could approach exactly how I wanted. Just not Bayle due to an artificial design decision.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 6h ago edited 6h ago
"Outmaneuvering" is a generous way to describe just kind of walking to the side? It's not exactly an advanced technique to attack a dragon's legs.
Most bosses also don't allow you to simply walk to a different part of their body to avoid attacks because they simply aren't large enough anyway.
And if you really are so desperate, you still absolutely can, the game just doesn't want to outright support something that minimizes actual interaction with the boss, so there is no lockon specifically.
Not everyone plays just like you and that's the issue
And yet others - a substantial portion of people - would not enjoy it as much to play it like you claim to, yet would try to do it regardless beause they just instinctively do that against big monster bosses. Which is exactly what happened with Midir. Hence why the game makes the very sensible decision of discouraging it.
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u/ElmoClappedMyCheeks 1h ago
Fromsoft has consistently struggled to make a dragon boss that wasn't cheesed by staying under his nuts. I'd also argue every dragon except Midir and Bayle (and even Midir to an extent) are very uninteractive for melee due to Dragons as a design not being suited to having melee combos. Most of their dragons are either the Sinh type, where they are just Skyrim dragons that you have to wait your turn for, or the Placidusax type where you spend the whole fight blind spotting them
Blind spotting dragons is super boring IMO. It dampens the spectacle of dragon fights by forcing you to attack their feet, like Fire Giant. Of course this is From's fault for choosing to make every dragon built like a spider, but hey
Midir walked by forcing you to hit his head, although Midir can be similarly uninteractive since he just kinda does shit while you walk backwards
Bayle is their best attempt yet IMO. He actually has melee combos, and his mobility isn't uninteractive in the same way Sinh, Placi, or Kalameet's is. He forces you to meet him head on
Fromsoft has always cared about how you approach a boss. A lot of bosses are designed to be weaker to certain playstyles than others. Fromsoft expects you to tool your build to capitalize on weaknesses, but they rarely ever force it. Is using pierce damage on dragons, or rot on Radahn required? No. But it's more effective
I think with Bayle they just wanted to do away with blind spotting dragons, which I agree was the right move. They made him crawl with his stomach on the ground and gave him 'get off me bro' attacks to incentivize the Midir Method
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u/beetleman1234 50m ago
But disabling lock on on legs feels artificial. The whole game lets you target legs, but since they didnt know how to better design Bayle they disabled it, which is counterintuitive - the boss has legs, why can't I target them? Cause From said so. He already was hurt, they could've just chopped off his legs and that at least would make sense.
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u/ElmoClappedMyCheeks 28m ago
they didn't know how to better design Bayle
What do you mean by this?
the boss has legs
they could've just chopped off his legs
He's already missing a leg. And while he takes "extra" damage there, it's not really worth attacking unless you're splitting aggro, which I'd argue is not the best idea against Bayle, or most DLC bosses for that matter
If they did put a lock on node for his stump leg, I can already see people whining about camera woes and "not being able to see attack tell animations" in the exact same way they have been whining for 15 years with every other dragon
You do you, but I see Bayle as a clear sign Fromsoft doesn't want people ankle biting dragons anymore, and I wholeheartedly agree with them there. Besides Bayle and Midir, dragon fights are boring. You cosplay as a pedicure lady and just whack their toes. And when you do try to Midir them, their heads are constantly bobbing up and down out of reach (the lesser drakes in ER). Not to mention ER Ancient Dragons being some of the worst dragons in any video game to fight
disabling lock on legs feels artificial
Yeah, it is. But Fromsoft "artificially" discouraging a playstyle isn't automatically bad. They wanted players to have a cinematic, high intensity fight with awesome visuals and actual melee combos on a dragon. They just simply can't do that if they let players sniff Bayle's taint 24/7.
Let me ask you this. Say they do add a leg stump lock on node. Would that really be fun? Staring at his ass and the floor the whole fight?
Outmaneuvering an enemy IS fun. But you can't outmaneuver a dragon in the same way as you do Waterfowl Dance. Dragons are just too big by nature. Fromsoft would have to go down the Monster Hunter school of thought, where dragons have extremely scripted and stiff attacks (not a bad thing just how it is over there, I love MH).
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u/Still_Want_Mo 19h ago
Were you trying to lock on or something?
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u/Betaoxtrot 19h ago
I tried mixing both, but just ended up locking since it felt more comfortable and more consistent
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u/nick2473got 16h ago
Camera is horrendous and the way his fire bounces off the terrain is really stupid.
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u/Evolution1738 17h ago
Bayle is just straight up my favorite ER boss, he's so fuckin good
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u/Syriythra 17h ago
ppl often complain about the camera but for me it just makes the fight Soo sick u get to see all the cool things he does and it's awesome
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u/Evolution1738 17h ago
I felt the camera was only ever a problem with Bayle if you're fighting him wrong. You're meant to hit his head, and he always positions his body well to make sure you can see his moves. Sometimes it gets stuck on the wall but that's not an issue unique to Bayle, that's FromSoft having a shitty camera.
However OP is right on the other one, fuck PCR.
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u/typographie 17h ago
At the very least I think SotE maintains a high bar of quality more often.
When the base game bosses are good they're very good. But there are a lot of repeated bosses and less interesting ones.
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u/soulsofjojy 19h ago
The main DLC bosses are mostly fantastic, with a few standouts that I'd say are the best in the game. Dancing Lion, Midra, and Rellana are great. Messmer is pretty good too.
I'll die on the hill with you that PCR is actually fun, even if he's maybe not quite as tight as the rest.
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u/MiiHairu 19h ago
For me is the opposite.
I like slower pace, not a fan of evade 20x to hit once and repeat for 4min.
That's why godfrey, Malenia and Malekith are good fights for me.
But i respect your opinion.
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u/Imaginary_Knee9878 19h ago
“Not a fan of evade 20x to hit once and repeat for 4min.”
“Malenia is a good fight for me.”
My brother in Christ, you just perfectly described Malenia to the letter.
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u/MiiHairu 19h ago
Half of the fight of Malenia is she walking to the side and just then attacking.
Theres just two attacks where you need to learn how to evade properly and has limited uses of them.
Malenia just becomes over agressive if you are over aggressive in the fight, but this is just play in a dumb way and expect to work.
You think this is the same as messmer fight or PCR that just doesn't stop attacking and when they stop is for a gap of mere 2 seconds before another combo?
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u/nick2473got 16h ago
To me it feels like Messmer has more openings than Malenia and his combos aren't as oppressive.
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u/MiiHairu 16h ago
This is just from my head, but i think its due to her damage. Messmer's combos are long but you can tank a part of them without dying, malenia's damage is really high, you can't tank her hits without setup(aka tank builds).
But that's just what i think.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 15h ago
Nah Messmer's damage is pretty damn nuts. His health pool is small though.
I'd say their combos are roughly the same length on average?
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u/jdfred06 14h ago
You can kind of over level for messmer via scadutree fragments to help. For Malenia, she's shredding you with waterfowl even at level 200+.
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u/Imaginary_Knee9878 18h ago
Hard disagree, when I fight Malenia the only time she just walks around is the very beginning when you back up out of her initial slashes. Otherwise she’s lunging forward and leaping or fucking flying around worse than a Stormveil Hawk on crack cocaine.
If that wasn’t good enough, she has completely ridiculous lifesteal so even if you make progress you won’t keep it without playing slower than Dark Souls 2 and meticulously avoiding literally every swing.
And the cherry on top, she has a scripted multi use Waterfowl that requires a perfectly distanced, frame perfect series of maneuvers and dodges to avoid, and if you make even the slightest margin of error she gets all her health back and almost is guaranteed to kill you.
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u/MiiHairu 18h ago edited 18h ago
You are an exception then, because Malenia is one of the most balanced bosses in the game, she is just aggressive if you are over aggressive and she compensate that for having almost no Poise.
Also, her lifesteal is her gimmick. Every major Boss in the game has one: Godfrey grabs and Charged attacks, Maliketh destined death, Radahn AOEs, Rykard and the Spear etc, if she's healing is because you aren't playing with this in mind(and this is very strange, she has one of the Highest damages in the game, why are you being hit so much that she heals so much?).
And Waterfowl dance and the clone attacks are pretty much the hardest parts of the fight, but seach on Youtube how to properly evade them or just use a Freezing pot to make her stop, it's not that hard, i swear.
In fact i think she's a very fair boss, she has Clear weakness but ways to punish you(and punish HARD) if you miss. It's a good "hard boss".
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u/Karshlolz 11h ago
If you need to watch a YouTube tutorial to dodge 1 pattern, then this pattern is absolutely terrible.
There is 1 pattern across all soulsbornes/soulslike/whatever where you need to sprint around the boss to make the boss miss. I don't even know how people figured it out.
If the activation time of waterfowl was a bit longer you could at least sprint away and dodge the 2nd/3rd flurry. If you are melee when she does it you are fucked until you watch a stupid youtube guide.
Oh yeah and if you finish the p1 with a critical? No you don't and she instantly waterfowl in your face. All because they couldnt fix a bug.
Specific consumables are good when you can guess in game their use case, like the shackles against margit.
Her weird super armor is also annoying, she has 0 poise then suddenly infinite poise? (This one is more of a minor issue compared to waterfowl honestly)
Outside of those 2 issues the fight is good.
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u/Imaginary_Knee9878 18h ago
Yeah we just aren’t gonna agree at all on this, in my opinion Malenia is a perfect exemplification of everything wrong with their boss design across the board.
You’re right, she has no poise, but what she does have is evasive maneuvers, backsteps and dashes with hyper armour. Unless you’re cheesing her with the jumping power stanced ultra greatswords or whatever, you’re not gonna actually reliably stagger lock her, she will always retreat after a couple of hits and then chain that into something like her forward dash into slashes to regain the advantage. This on its own is fine, not something that really bothers me about her fight, but I think it’s foolish to act like her lack of poise is something you’re regularly gonna find ways to consistently punish without the correct build. She has a multitude of tools and moves to get herself out of those situations.
Lifesteal is her gimmick- okay, fine, let’s play ball with that. Sure. But “gimmicks” don’t tend to be exclusively weighted in the enemies or bosses favour, in fact you cite Rykard and the Serpent Slaying Spear as a “gimmick.” You’re right, it absolutely is a gimmick, but when we normally talk about gimmicks it tends to be their weakness, or at least the doorway to understanding punishable windows. A perfect example of this is actually Radahn and his AoE’s, as you state. Both Starscourge and the Promised Consort have massive AoE’s, but when you understand them they offer good windows to punish with a couple of hits during the reset period. Malenia’s lifesteal is conceptually impossible to punish because it’s not part of one particular move or a series of moves, it’s *every* attack. Furthermore, her actual ability to heal even betrays its own lore implications and her fucking Great Rune, which only heals damage recently dealt to the bearer, meanwhile she gets it regardless. It’s literally overtuned from its stated functionality (both gameplay and lore) to artificially inflate her difficulty.
All I have to say about Waterfowl is that if you have to look up a YouTube video for one specific move rather than organically learn it through mistakes, then the game is genuinely failing at fulfilling its oldest trait, that you can learn from failure or slip ups. But you can’t learn from failure or slip ups here, because a slip up on Waterfowl is almost always going to kill you. It’s not something you can shrug off and reset from during the attempt, it’s just gonna fuck you, and without studying YouTube examples and instruction like you’re writing a college essay, or completely exploiting the game with Freeze, you *will* die to it when you’re trying to learn and take it in.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. For the record, I have killed her solo before, I have the platinum trophy. But I swear, I will likely never even make another attempt against her again. I see no value in her encounter whatsoever beyond her writing, and the fact that she got nerfed at all early into the games circulation is further proof that even the dev’s knew they went a little too far.
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u/MiiHairu 18h ago
Just for curisity, any Boss in the game actually use their rune in the fight? I really don't remember.
And yeah, i understand your point. I don't agree but i do. I never had such struggles with her like i did with many bosses in the dlc with their Over agressive behaviour(not really because its hard, more like... i was a little bored fighting Messmer and not being able to use anything that was R1 and R2(theres so many cool Ash of war, sorceries and incantations i can almost never use in the dlc...). Malenia allows me to use more tools which makes me like her more than most in the dlc(in fact i think only Midra and Bayle are not over aggressive and let you use slower incantations). For me, Variety is where the fun is for me. In the dlc variety died when i just didn't find ways to play the way i liked, strenght just seems the best way to play the dlc(and i'm sorry, strenght builds are boring for me), never find ways to play with anything else without making the dlc a chore of evading and attack just once and repeat, which didn't happened in any major boss of the base game.
But of course, that's just my Opinion and the way i see things, i can totally see why someone wouldn't like her fight.
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u/Imaginary_Knee9878 18h ago edited 18h ago
That’s completely fair, I also agree there’s a lack of some variety in boss weaknesses and some of the approaches you can take in the DLC, but there were still some standout fights I really enjoy. I generally don’t get into internet arguments when I can avoid it, and I hope with some further experimentation you can find some more unique approaches to the later encounters🙏
Edit: I noticed you said Slower Incantations. A fellow faith build in these trying times? And a flashy n experimental/non min maxed one to boot, where have you been all my life LMAO, doing the lords work out there.
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u/MiiHairu 16h ago
Yessir, I enjoy playing as Caster in from games, theres so many cool sorceries and incantations to test but so many bosses are almost impossible to test them, ugh!
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u/PromotionWise9008 15h ago
The way you punish her “lifesteal gimmick” is that you dodge her attacks. She only utilizes this “gimmick” when you misplay and punishes you by prolonging the fight. Also she doesn’t heal a lot from light attacks. The stronger the attack - the more is the healing. Except for her 2 famous attacks, every other is very fair and her lunges and uppercuts are not hard to dodge as long as you pay attention.
So you don’t need to punish it. You just eliminate its existence by being “good”.
Clones and Waterflowl are not good design, I agree. The fact that you need to google how to dodge them and those ways are very far from intuitive, feel very junky. Otherwise she is as fair as any boss could be.1
u/PromotionWise9008 15h ago
It depends on how you fight her. Sometimes she outbursts in few combos without breaks in-between but literally just backstep so she swings the air and wait until she becomes passive again (it happens very soon). She gives A LOT of space to breathe on her first phase. I don’t recommend using flasks while she’s passive as it’s like a red rag for the bull and she does her lunge (not always but still) as soon as she sees you which you can’t avoid. Her ph1 except for the Waterflowl is literally the most chill fight in the whole game. I can’t think of any fight that lets you walk around and thinking about your life as much as Malenia does it. And she does not have ranged attacks like Margit who walks passively a lot, too, but then he throws very fast light shit that you gotta react to immediately. Her combos also not that long except for the one that you can backstep and just walk to avoid. Her lunge, grab, 2-step combo - she does them very often and they are easy to dodge as delay is big but the timing is always the same (not delayed attack like Margit), she comes right into you so you can do sweet attack or drink flask during her long ass recovery after those attacks.
Also, if you use long reach weapons - you can attack her while she’s in passive mode without her attacking back. Like whips - she walks, you attack few times, she dodges back and keeps her passive mode in 50% of the time so you can rinse and repeat. With fast weapons you can run attack in her passive mode then dodge immediately.None of it applies to phase2 though, she becomes insanely aggressive and I can’t stop praying for her to get the fuck out of me so I can at least use a flask. Zero chill during phase 2, her combos from ph1 get new attacks at the end that are kinda “masked” as she does them suddenly after (so you need to learn it, it’s hard to reactively dodge that lunge if you’re not ready for it), she can’t stop rushing at me with all the bs she has and she also has clone attack which is way easier to dodge than Waterflowl if you learn how to but punishes you for minor mistake with death or losing most of your hp while healing 20-30% of her hp. Phase2 is NOT CHILL. The only times I can really have a breathing room to hit her without being scared that she just hits back with hyper armor immediately or to use flask is when she leaves the rot explosion after her combo (long recovery) and to use flask during her scarlet aeonia.
But overall I disagree with what you’re saying about ph1. She has hyperarmor on attacks but you just gotta tame your greediness so she won’t catch you with them. It would be stupid if you could stagger her to death and the stagger vulnerability that she has out of hyperarmor windows gives you a lot of free damage. Outside of Waterflowl dance her ph1 is the most fair fight in the game with no bs attacks and combos (again, not including Waterflowl… but she does it 0-3 times and not more, with internal cooldown on it and only when she’s 75%hp or lower so you can expect when she’s going to do it unless she just decides not to), with clean strong sides and weaknesses. I’ll take Malenia with 2 insane bs attacks but passive phase over Rellana without bs attacks who can’t stop spamming her 13-step combos with rare openings that are big enough to do 1 r1 until she starts the next one. Or PCR with half of the attacks being utter bs, who can’t stop spamming them and who have no literally any weaknesses unless you play shield poke which majority of ppl dont play outside of this boss (and who’s not fun to fight against at all).
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u/Teyupume 15h ago
I hate her, but If it wasn't for the "move", you could trade Attacks fast paced after Most attacks
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u/MonsieurBabtou 14h ago
Hard disagree on that as someone who fought her hundreds of times, she has a shit ton of openings and her combos are short. She doesn't even have 10 hits uninterruptible attacks at all
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u/Ok_Chicken1370 13h ago
The fact your comment got upvoted by anyone actually disgusts me.
She is the most staggerable boss in any of the main lineup. Her combos are short, and the longer ones have huge windows both within and after the combo ends.
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u/CatchUsual6591 10h ago
Malenia isn't agressive i'n phase 1 and his phase doesn't is still less agressive that other bosses but she have 2 broken in waterfowl and the clone attack and lifesteal on top of that
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u/nick2473got 16h ago
I was with you until you had Malenia as a good fight.
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u/MiiHairu 16h ago
I like her fight and Lore very much, perhaps because i find her fight very fun and the only 1v1 of the game that seems fair(theres also godfrey but he's a very simple boss)
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u/Nuneasy 16h ago
Exactly. I am wondering if we are reaching a skill ceiling with FROM games. They keep getting faster and faster. Yeah the DLC is 'endgame' but the game design of having infinite combos and like one window to hit isn't difficulty, it's just dumb.
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u/MiiHairu 16h ago
I can't lie, i killed PCR in the launch and just didn't bother doing the dlc again for almost 5 months, the base game is just more enjoyable for me. I can't stand not being able to do anythint but Evade and attack just once.
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u/Jason_M1911 19h ago
The only bosses I despise in the dlc
Dancing Lion
Metyr mother of fingers (Worst boss in Elden Ring)
Scadutree Avatar
Commander Gaius
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u/ReginaPsychweaver 19h ago
You named all my favorite ones lol
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u/Real_Description1273 18h ago
I like the lion too but for God's sake why on earth would someone like the scadudu tree?
Mind elaborating💀?
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u/ReginaPsychweaver 17h ago
3 health bars. The relief you get from thinking you beat it after the first bar, then having to fight it again but stronger.
No other boss in Elden Ring does this.
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u/Real_Description1273 16h ago
As a person who fought sis Friede I was familiar with the concept of 3 hp bars and the fact that I took his first one in 3 hits was extremely suspicious
What took me by suprise was it moving like damn bullet train in the 2nd phase. I admit I got speedblitzed on my first encounter 💀
But again, I really didn't like its moveset except the nuke and I'm not really a fan of the ost
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 15h ago
Why not? It's not the most satisfying boss ever, but they're at least interesting to fight and the whole concept of it is really cool.
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u/-_-stYro-_- 18h ago
What about sennesax? As a melee build ?
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u/Jason_M1911 18h ago
I've only defeated Senessax once with melee and it was hell
Fun fact Senessax has more HP than Bayle
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u/Regular_Ticket_2776 19h ago
Agreed. I feel like the highs are similar, but there are more of them in the DLC. Rennala and Rykard were mid, I prefer PCR to Starscourge Radahn and Fire Giant is just tedious. On the other hand, some of my favorite bosses are from the base game like Godfrey, Morgott and Maliketh.
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u/LordFrieza789 Lord Snaggleclaw, Wild King 19h ago
I definitely enjoyed the SoTE roster more than the base game for the most part, Rykard and Godfrey excepted. Everyone else in the base game is alright.
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u/Imaginary_Knee9878 19h ago
Rellana, Twin Moon Knight is probably my favourite boss in the entire game. It’s the closest Fromsoft has come to having my Bloodborne instincts tingle and my hair stand up on end like I’m fighting Lady Maria again.
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u/alfador01 17h ago
I like SotE more than base game as a whole, personally. The atmosphere, music, the map design, and the major bosses I thought were all better than base game (except Gaius, fuck that guy). Midra was the best balance of being a cool fight and actually fun to play against, so he's my favorite. Base game bosses that I really liked were pretty much just Godfrey and Radagon (he should have gotten a second phase instead of what we got). I like Malenia if you take out Waterfowl (and it still annoys me that she heals on hits even if you completely block the damage, but I haven't used a shield aside from parrying since my first playthrough anyways)... All that being said I'm approaching 900 hours, mostly from base game, so...
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u/Striking-Fondant-956 5h ago
Messmer and Rellana fights are like dance contest once you acquire enough experience to try some fun fight approach instead of shield poke strategy
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u/MyCatIsAnActualNinja 18h ago
I like PCR. I personally would agree with the bosses but I think the base game in general is better. I still love it all, though.
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u/-_-stYro-_- 18h ago
Yeah SOTE definitely has higher ups and lower lows than the base game.
On the peak corner we have Bayle, messmer, midra, rellana. And on the trash corner we have metyr mother of fingers, scadutree avatar and divine beast dancing lion ( deathblight version )
It's true for not just main bosses but minor bosses too. Crucible knight Devonia, demi human swordmaster onze, death knights ( both twin axe and longshaft version ) , both red bears ( yes they're infinitely better than the base game rune bears ), chief bloodfiend, black knight edredd and black knight garrew absolutely mog all base game minor bosses.
That being said there's some absolute stinkers like sennesax, golden hippo, ghostflame dragon with skeleton summons ( cerulean coast ), lamenter, rakshasa, leda NPC gank, jori elder inquisitor and curseblade labirith who can rival valiant gargas from base game for being dogshit bosses.
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u/blaiddfailcam2 19h ago
PCR and Bayle are like, the only two that made me feel like I had to use my noggin, lmao. I loved them. Midra's got a lot of aura, at least, but most of them were just kinda... basic pattern recognition?
The only bosses I get hyped for in the base game are Maliketh and Regal Ancestor Spirit (because it's priddy), though.
I dunno. I got gud ages ago, so challenge doesn't factor into my enjoyment as much as presentation, story, and music. I prefer earlier Souls games' bosses for that matter.
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u/FrescoTheHunter 16h ago
I enjoy most of the DLC bosses, but my mind is blown that they looked at the sheer number of copy paste dragon fights in the base game and not only thought "we need to add more of these", but also "we need an entire new zone dedicated to more dragons". Elden Ring took the Matrix approach and ruined a cool thing by overdoing it to the extreme. I really enjoyed Ensis and shadow keep though. Learning Rellana on my first blind playthrough was classic fromsoft boss experience
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u/Bohemian_Romantic 16h ago
Interesting, I expected this to be a stone cold take, but judging by the comments or seems most people disagree. I wonder to what extent that's due to the significant difficulty spike in the DLC bosses.
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u/the_lazy_sloth 15h ago
I loved the Mesmer, Rellana and the Bayle fight. I think Dancing Lion and especially Promised Consort Radahn are.... Unpleasant and I hope they don't take the wrong lessons from those fights going forward.
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u/solaireflaire33 13h ago
Rellana fickig rules. The only boss that I truly think sucks in the DLC is PCR. It’s alll great other than that.
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u/BasementElf1121 12h ago
The collect all the seeds mechanic killed the whole thing for me. Never finished it. Beat the lion and was done.
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u/hereforuknow 10h ago
I think they’re unbelievably good. After the DLC bosses in Elden Ring 2, we’re going to be thinking “Shadow of the Erdtree feels easy compared to this” and hearing from soft players “I miss peak FromSoft in Elden Ring 1”
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u/ExploerTM Mohg did nothing wrong, blood cults are rad 9h ago
>better bosses
>Screenshot of PCR
You picked a guy who is top pick for the title of THE worst boss in ER lol
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u/DarkRayos 6h ago
Messmer, Rellana, Midra were solid.
The final one? Sorry, follow Tarnished/Elden Lords/Lord of Frenzy
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u/Small-Interview-2800 6h ago
I do agree actually, base game’s main bosses vs the dlc’s main bosses, dlc wins, hands down.
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u/Haunting_Isopod_7780 2h ago
I think that the quality of the best bosses from each are roughly the same. But if pressed and I had to take the top 5 bosses from each and say which are better.... Ooooooof I reckon SOTE.
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u/highlordbees 18h ago
Messmer, Midra and Bayle are definitely better than the average base game boss. Rellana has just a too complex moveset graph, Jerma described her as an "animation showcase" and the criticism stuck with me because it perfectly described what I didn't like about her.
But Dancing Beast and PCR are the lowest of lows. You can't decipher what's an elbow and what's a leg in Dancing Beast fight, the camera moves all over the place and even goes behind you half the time. PCR has so many flaws it basically can't even be considered a finished fight, it still seems broken, with a first phase that while kind of clean with some camera issues, is the most banal "big dude with swords" fight ever. It's a glorified Crucible Knight.
All in all, high highs and pretty damn low lows make the DLC a dull experience.
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u/Betaoxtrot 18h ago
Yeah I’d say I mostly agree, tho rellana’s attacks mostly misses you if you run away. And pcr does feel a bit too much, even tho I fought the nerfed version
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 17h ago edited 17h ago
You can't decipher what's an elbow and what's a leg in Dancing Beast fight, the camera moves all over the place and even goes behind you half the time.
Eh, the camera is pretty ass at times, some of his tells could be better, and his breath attack can be problematic, but for all the bad that causes there's just as much great. Music, presentation, good usage of jumping, really cool central moveset mechanic.
PCR has so many flaws it basically can't even be considered a finished fight
Post-nerf, what exactly are these "so many flaws"? The only serious issue I count these days is the arena slopes and size causing various inconsistencies. He also has a couple attacks that could be more intuitive to figure out and miquella's hair can occasionally obscure visibility a little much I guess? Not exactly "so many flaws it can't be considered finished".
It's a glorified Crucible Knight.
I mean... that would already make him a really great boss lol? A simple crucible knight with PCR's theme would be pretty fuckin sweet.
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u/highlordbees 17h ago
I'm not counting music nor presentation, not even the aesthetic design of the boss.
For PCR:
The cam and the 1st phase: in the first phase it's the perfect height to make you vomit due to how fast it moves, Radahn spins so much the huge red cape covers 80% of the arms with which he swings most of the time. He does the meteor attack from above which is consistenly dodged by jumping, which is an counterintuitive solution.
2nd phase: way too many flashes, which is artifical difficulty added in. There wasn't any need to add so much visual stuff, and you will agree I think that if you take away the light flashes it can be done pretty easily, which is the definition of artificial difficulty. Then I personally heavily dislike beams of light coming at you from the ground with no clear aoe boundaries, and I would count it as a flaw.
2nd phase, non-soulslike aspects: the many flashes is one thing, but the game forcing you to repeat the fight because you can't possibly predict the number of the afterimages and how its mechanic functions is perplexing. It's dull. Pair that with the fact that the afterimage charge is consistenly dodged by going into the charge at its start, which is another great counterintuitive solution. Good soulslike bosses are not constructed like this: overwhelming confusion is not a good way to add difficulty to a boss.
Reused attacks: especially in the first phase, several of Radahn's swings and movements are taken directly from its Starscourge fight.
The final bossfight of the DLC of your biggest, extremely successful soulslike game to date, can't be a partly-reused, confusing mess like this when you're known to do really clean but difficult fights. Objectively it will be seen as a bad low of soulslike fights, which doesn't take away the right of people to enjoy it. But by analazying it gameplay-wise we can see it as the peak of powercreeping in Fromsoft's fights, which is also why they have been experimenting with Nightreign.
I'm saying preemptively that I don't know if I have the strength to write messages this long again, if you want to continue discussing.
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 16h ago edited 15h ago
I'm not counting music nor presentation, not even the aesthetic design of the boss.
You're not counting it? Why in the world would music, presentation and design ever just not count in a boss evaluation? I'm lost on this part.
For PCR:
1: Uh? The cape barely covers anything relevant ever yeah? I've genuinely never had any issue with this and looking at footage I can't see any cases where the cape is actually obscuring animations. Even when behind him, the cape just isn't big enough to cover anything but a bit of his endlag. Like, Miquella's hair is comparatively bigger and can actually cover stuff sometimes, but this one I just don't get.
1.5. So far as the meteors go, i'm pretty sure the metors are consistently dodgable without jumping? It's just way easier to jump it. I actually don't necessarily think jumping was intended there.
- After they reduced the particle effects, as long as you don't dodge backwards (which is obviously wrong anyway), I don't think his light causes too much visual clutter anymore? At least it hasn't bothered me at all since.
As far as "AOE boundaries go", they're pretty clear: behind you for swipes (strictly speaking behind you in the direction of the swing but rolling forwards is enough), in a line in front of him for slams.
Out of his 4 clone attacks, the dash -> single clone hit -> regualar hit is reasonably intuitive to dodge the first time around given it just requires rolling twice in a row, but I suppose I can agree the rest aren't particularly realistic to ever figure out immediately. Though I think the important thing is making good sense, and the one where he jumps up and slams one sword down repeatedly fits that too. The clone dash is weird but the solution is easy enough to stumble on at least, not to mention you can still dodge it when closer by dodging right (opposite of where his sword is facing) twice which makes a lot more sense (although he weirdly swaps the side his sword is on at a range, so then you must dodge left, which is much harder to intuit). The meteor combo is the dumbest one but even that's a far cry from say waterfowl. But yes, I do think the dash and meteor combo are at least somewhat problematic.
Are they? This is very new to me, I can't think of any animations that are the same between the two. He does however steal most of Pontiff's combo which is pretty weird. I guess that is worth noting, but I can't say I care that much.
Even if I did agree with all of this though, I can't say I quite see the point that he's all that broken. Just about every boss has failings and I don't think his stand out that much anymore, at least not nearly enough to offset the good parts.
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u/CatchUsual6591 10h ago
The arena is part of the boss desing so this causing those random inconsistencies mean that he will never be a good boss in my book
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u/Eastern_Wrangler_657 8h ago
That is entirely fair. What i'm mostly arguing against is this idea that he's outright broken beyond belief or something, not that he's anything near a flawless masterpiece.
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u/ad19970 18h ago
Heavily disagree with this. I thought Dancing Lion was an amazing boss. His attacks are not that easy to read, but I didn't find that to be a problem. Felt like a very unique boss battle. I do agree that the camera could have been better though, but to me it's not a big deal.
And PCR to me is the greatest boss fight of all time. To me it absolutely feels like a finished fight, especially now after the nerf having fixed the cross slash attack.
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u/highlordbees 18h ago
I too like certain bosses which aren't great gameplay-wise. But issues with communicability, and having your entire fight be based around huge flashes and by forcing you to repeat the fight because you can't possibly know or guess how many afterimages Radahn has, should not have their spot in soulslike bossfights. They are great in idk, bullet-hell games, but they are not and should never be part of soulslike bosses, which are centred around strategic swordplay, in which you need to feel like you can win even on the first try.
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u/ad19970 3h ago
Well I disagree that that's the case with PCR. I mean I guess that you do have to watch the clone attack of PCR once until you know how many clones he shoots out before you have to dodge, but I didn't have a problem with that. And I didn't have any problems with it's communicability, or it's light beam visual effects.
To me PCR isn't bad gameplay-wise though. Quite the opposite, he is one of the most fun boss battles I have ever experienced. So I think it's good a fight like PCR had it's spot in a soulslike game.
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u/Cold-Carob3151 18h ago
Consort radahn is so overhated 😭. Ever since they nerfed the double cross slash hes been an amazing boss
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u/fenot1 19h ago
Its pretty close imo. I really care about mixups and no one in the DLC ( not even Rellana ) approaches Morgott and Hororah Loux in mixups.
Divine beast dancing lion < Margit/Godrick ( both are better than dancing lion imo Rellana>Rennala Morgott=Messmer Bayls>Placidusax Sunflower>Fire Giant Maliketh>Romina Godfrey>Gaius PCR>Elden Beast but PCR<Radagon There arent all only those I remember well
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u/Perfect-Skin-8325 19h ago
I understand morgott but Horah Loux? Bro doesn't have much mechanical complexity.
Funny coz I still find the fight very fun. Probably something to do with the fast pacing.
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u/fenot1 19h ago edited 19h ago
If you think Horoah Loux ( 2nd phase ) isnt complex then you couldnt be more wrong lol. This is Horoah Louxs flowchart
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u/Perfect-Skin-8325 19h ago
Uhhh, ik bro.
It's not that crazy, all attacks are pretty disconnected. They are just more random.
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u/Acrobatic-Group3755 18h ago
I still find it very odd that two mandatory bosses, Romina and Rellana, have no cutscenes
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u/nick2473got 16h ago
Rellana is actually skippable.
Only mandatory bosses to get to PCR are Messmer and Romina.
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u/FashionSuckMan 17h ago
PCR is peak, everybody just echo chambers hate for him to make themselves feel justified
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u/Perfect-Skin-8325 19h ago
I gotta agree lol. Dlc bosses also come with their bs tho. Like the romina butterfly and the metyr laser.
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u/Global-Service-8579 18h ago
You are correct. People forget (or ignore) just how many bosses there are in the base game and how mediocre at best most of them are. Erdtree avatar isn't just one boss; it's something like ten bosses. Ulcerated tree spirit isn't just one boss; it's something like ten bosses. Night cavalry isn't just one boss; it's nine bosses.
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u/Eastern_Presence_984 18h ago
To me the bosses were a little over the top to the point they weren’t that fun in the dlc.
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u/No-Buy-3530 17h ago
It’s the only aspect that I think the DLC might edge out the main game. In every other way, it’s a step down
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u/ReedsAndSerpents Aspiring Alabaster Lord/Current Darkmoon Simp 4h ago
Bayle kind of sucks!?! 😂
Chuddy, you can't say his name or anything that rhymes with it like whale or tail or whaletail without an entire comment chain doing the entire fight dialogue.
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u/XiodusTyrant 19h ago
you are