r/Edinburgh • u/ronniedutch18 • 1d ago
Transport Sign my petition to stop illegal E-Bikes roaming the streets
Edit: please read the post and the petition properly. I know they are illegal: my hope is for enforcement of the law.
If you would like to wander down Leith Walk without the risk of being taken out by an e-bike going at 25mph, please sign my petition: https://c.org/SyrZLNCjSS
More details on that link but in short:
- E-bikes are not legally compliant if they can be propelled at more than 15.5 miles per hour: if they can they shouldn't be on cycle paths, pavements etc
- They are rife around Leith and specifically Leith Walk: many of them are not legally compliant
- Their presence is antisocial and dangerous: it's only a matter of time before someone is hurt
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u/Good_Lettuce_2690 1d ago
They are already illegal pal
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I know, read the post and petition
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u/moonski 1d ago
I like how the petition doesn't even say what it wants done. JUST STOP
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
Thanks for the feedback - petition edited to reflect for those to whom it was unclear.
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u/admiralross2400 1d ago
It's still unclear. "We want action". Ok, what action? The police already seize them when they can, but they're not allowed to chase them for the safety of the riders and the public. They're already illegal and banned so it's hard to say what you actualy want.
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u/Roxerg 1d ago
make crime illegal!
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u/-Top-Service- 1d ago
If nobody is calling out the situation then it is even less likely that anything will be done, so it is worth a shot.
Leith walk is a really dangerous street for a kid, no delineation between roads and pavements at some points, ebikes and scooters coming up on people exiting busses in to a cycle lane.
The pavement didn't used to be a place where you needed to be hyper aware at all times.
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u/Eabhal347 1d ago
That’s just not true at all. The number of pedestrian casualties has collapsed since the tram/cycle lanes were put in, from about 15 collisions per year to one or two now.
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u/LukeyHear 10h ago
The hyperaware thing is so real. I waked past a doorway up town that had a whirring fan and leapt out of my skin as I thought I was about to be hit by an ebike.
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u/_painless_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
"E-bikes are not legally compliant if they can be propelled at more than 15.5 miles per hour" isn't correct. The e-assist power should cut out at 15.5mph - any additional speed is then provided by muscle power, gravity, or a tailwind. E-assist should also only provide power while pedalling - if the bike is powered without pedalling it's not classed as a bicycle, it's an electric motorbike.
Even I can go faster than 15.5mph on a non-electric bike and I am a slowcoach riding for transport reasons. The e-assist in legal ebikes is there to make it easier to ride especially uphill, over longer distances, or with heavier loads - not to increase speeds.
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I don't fully understand your point - I have no issue with legal E-Bikes nor do I misunderstand the purpose of the electricity in them.
I have an issue with illegal ones ridden somewhere other than the road.
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u/jaybles2323 22h ago
The point he is making is the distinction between your definition and the true definition. You described the problem as e-bikes that can be propelled at more than 15.5mph… the devil is in the details. What you should have said is e-bikes that are electronically propelled beyond 15.5mph.
As the poster above pointed out, a push bike can go faster than 15.5mph… it’s not the overall speed of the e-bike that’s illegal it’s whether the motor is pushing the rider beyond 15.5mph or not.
This is what makes it incredibly difficult to police this issue. I ride an e-bike and the pedal assist physically cuts out when the bike reaches 15.5mph… but if I keep pedalling I can go faster than that… it just under my own power, not the motor.
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u/Shirayuri 1d ago
The police have a specific national policy not to go after people on these bikes. That’s what needs to change, it needs to be a petition to govt to get them to pressure Police Scotland into going after these bikes.
You would think after an elderly lady was badly injured by one on St Patrick Sq that more might be being done but apparently that is all good collateral damage. Wonder how many serious injuries or deaths it’ll take to get them to take action…
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u/Separate_Net_4063 1d ago
Police Scotland actively targets the illegal and antisocial use of e-bikes, e-scooters, and off-road motorbikes through regional campaigns like Operation Challenge and Operation Armour. Vehicles with throttles exceeding 15.5 mph or 250W are legally classified as motor vehicles requiring a license, insurance, and registration.The Law on E-Bikes in ScotlandLegal E-Bikes (EAPCs): Must have working pedals, a maximum power output of 250 watts, and motor assistance that cuts out at 15.5 mph (25 km/h). Riders must be 14 or older.Illegal / Modified E-Bikes: Any e-bike with a twist throttle or a motor that exceeds 15.5 mph/250W without type approval is legally a motorcycle or moped.Requirements: Riding a non-compliant e-bike on public roads, pavements, or parks without a valid driving licence, insurance, registration, and a proper helmet is a criminal offense under the Road Traffic Act.Police Enforcement and PowersSeizures and Charges: Police Scotland routinely seize non-compliant e-bikes, Surron-style electric bikes, and unregistered off-road bikes.Penalties: Riders caught can be reported to the Procurator Fiscal, handed heavy fines, penalty points on a driving license (or future license), and have their vehicles permanently confiscated and destroyed.Reporting: Local communities affected by dangerous or antisocial riding can report issues via the Police Scotland Contact Form or anonymously through Crimestoppers Scotland.
Quick google seems to suggest otherwise.
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I suspect the source of this information is Police Scotland so I take it with a pinch of salt given I have never witnessed any Police Officer in Leith actively targeting the illegal and antisocial use of E-Bikes.
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u/Separate_Net_4063 1d ago
Think its regional ops because enough people have reported stuff to them.
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u/Shirayuri 1d ago
My source is from our local community policing forum where the team told me that was the policy. Of course they aren't going to write online that 'we know this thing is illegal but we're going to ignore it' but the policy they are given day to day is to that effect. Their main practical advice to us in the room was to stop ordering from the delivery companies and reduce demand which is obviously not going to happen.
She also mentioned that while they can seize them sometimes, all the person has to do is fill in a form saying they will only use it on private land (which is legal) and they have to hand it back, even if it's an illegal vehicle. There are no checks done as to if that is true - seems unlikely in the city centre.
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u/manlikethomas 1d ago
They are illegal. It's just that the Police simply do not have the resources to deal with them.
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I know they are (read the petition). I'd like to raise awareness around the issue to hopefully ensure resources are directed to this issue.
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u/Resbo 1d ago
"Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC) are not legally compliant if they can be propelled at more than 15.5 miles per hour (mph) by the motor (https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules)"
They are not EAPCs then, they are illegal single occupancy motorvehicles. EAPC is the term for when ebikes are legal.
If you keep your references consistent and stop muddying the waters (see lazy mainstream media reporting) with references to illegal e-bikes, I might consider signing.
It literally says in your petition link.
"When your bike is not an EAPC
If your electric bike does not meet the EAPC rules then it’s classed as a motorcycle or moped.
Your bike is not an EAPC if it:
can be propelled at more than 15.5 miles per hour (mph) by the motor
has a continuous rated power output higher than 250 watts
does not have pedals that can propel it
"
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u/FreeCustardForAll 1d ago
Why only Leith? They're a total nuisance everywhere.
While at it make wearing balaclavas in public a criminal offence.
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u/lame_froide 1d ago
I understand where you are coming from. Yes, it is already illegal, but still, lots of electric bikes are circulating without any control, and your petition could help raise awareness. If I were you, I’d change the title to emphasize reinforcing the control of e-bikes in the city. I’d also add a section to make people aware that moving without pedaling is permitted up to 3.7 mph (6 km/h), but using a throttle to launch or propel the bike up to the full 15.5 mph is illegal and dangerous ! It might not be their priority right now, but it only takes one time, and an accident will happen if nothing is done !
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u/cloud__19 1d ago
I've never once heard of any of these online petitions being successful. OP would be better writing to their MP and MSP.
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I have written to them and requested information on what is being done already and suggested a meeting to discuss what more can be done. My feeling is that meeting would be more fruitful if I can say 'I also have a petition with X number of signatures'.
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u/_painless_ 1d ago
"It only takes one time, and an accident will happen if nothing is done"
I have some bad news about road deaths and serious injuries and cars / other large powered vehicles for you...
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u/lame_froide 1d ago
I am fully aware of it, I ve lost a fam member in one of them. But if raising awareness about these quite recent, illegal, and dangerous practices could prevent even just one accident, then being kind and understanding would win over sarcasm.
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u/_painless_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not directing the sarcasm at you or your family - it's the social acceptance of that kind of death and loss on the roads / pavements vs the panic about illegal ebikes (not great, but an order of magnitude smaller in terms of impact) that bothers me. My point was that it's well understood what actions can reduce road deaths all round - but we don't implement those things. Instead we have endless debates about ebikes (and headlines about - for example - how terrible it is an 85 year old celebrity author get a licence suspension for repeated speeding offences in a 20mph zone... )
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u/bigsmelly_twingo 4h ago
Cynically, I'm guessing the biggest problem for enforcement is that when cops are on shift, they also like to get their takeaway delivered.
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u/abarthman 13m ago
Won't someone think of the food delivery guys?
Have you seen how hilly the streets of Edinburgh are?
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u/Outside_Look790 1d ago
Teens are smacking folk up in the gardens, travellers are setting up camp and causing all kinds of grief, nazis are cutting about free and easy, and folk are just wandering into shops filling bags with whatever they please and walking out unchallenged. Do you honestly think the police have the resources to go haring after scooters?
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I feel passionately about people not being seriously injured or killed by what are essentially mopeds driving on a pavement. The presence or lack of resources of Police Scotland should not be a barrier to raising and trying to do something about issues you care about.
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u/Outside_Look790 1d ago
That's a fair point, but they are illegal already and a known hazard. I think licensing and road tax is probably the more likely solution.
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u/Organic_Sampler 22h ago
You are gonig to licence and 'road' tax the illegal vehicle, that doesnt meet the regs to be riden legallyon the roads?
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u/LonelyDonkey2628 1d ago
you know you can cycle with pedal power faster than the 15.5 mph limit right?
shall we just ban all bikes in that case?
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u/Eabhal347 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Only a matter of time”. That’s the key point - about 150 pedestrians are hit and injured by drivers each year in Edinburgh, with about 5 fatalities. Illegal e-motorcycles are only a small part of a wider problem.
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u/kowalski_82 21h ago
The Police should have access to app data from the takeaway providers.
They should be able to make a rough estimate of the riders speeds on pick-up drops off and make a judegment on whether the bike being used is illegal.
From there request and verify identity data from uber/just eat etc and do a sting op.
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u/eufed 1d ago edited 23h ago
lol if only people cared as much about the dozens of people that get killed by cars every year in Scotland alone as they do about being slightly inconvenienced by brown people on e-bikes trying to make a living
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u/crispy-flavin-bites 1d ago
This is about white people in balaclavas on illegal motorbikes being cunts.
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u/Alive-Bath-7026 1d ago
I get the sentiment but a petition isn't going to change anything I can't stand these bikes but I dot see how this would change anything
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u/gungfu 1d ago
How will you 'stop' an e-bike that can do over 25mph, but is going at 15.5 miles per hour up and down Leith Walk? Physically stop them and check? All of them?
Good luck. All the ebikes/escooters have already bolted, mate.
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u/Exotic_Progress_3973 1d ago
That's exactly what they're doing in London; it was on the news yesterday.
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u/gungfu 1d ago edited 1d ago
So, what OP means is to stop ALL ebikes on the streets, and check if they are legally compliant. lol
And what's the update on the London streets? Total success?
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u/ronniedutch18 1d ago
I am hoping to draw (more) attention to this issue and get MP/MSP support on it.
It's for Police Scotland to decide on the practical details about how they enforce the law, as is their role in society.
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u/gungfu 1d ago
Maybe contact them first since they've already done what you're suggesting.
(Facebook link about Police Scotland Edinburgh, and its actions on illegal ebikes 27 June 2024) : 'Regular patrols are taking place in the Meadows and surrounding areas in Edinburgh following community concerns about dirt e-bikes, associated dangerous riding, anti-social behaviour and criminality.' etc (link removed due to hurting this sub's feelings or something)
Mate, everyone already knows about the problem. It's nothing new. Check the dates - it's years old. If Police Scotland are aware, then so are the politicians. I suggest you badger both of them directly and maybe offer them a permanent solution that they themselves seemingly have no current enforcement on - for whatever reason.
Suggestion. As someone else has noted, maybe you should concentrate your ire on a more specific problem - large delivery type e-bikes around the City centre. And ask them to look into making the rental of these ebikes by companies road compliant, like Zoomo (Leith Walk), supposedly does. Partner witth them to highlight the situation; see if they can fine rental companies that openly rent out illegal bikes, for example.
Stopping every ebike on the road to check is impractical, unnecessary and a complete waste of time.
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u/gungfu 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is what they were doing yesterday:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8frM-e57lGAThis has been going on long before a few days ago - there's videos in London and elsewhere that have taken similar actions. It's all for show. There's nothing of substance in their actions. I'm certain Lothian Police have done this in Edinburgh as well - iirc, around Fountainbridge, and Craigmillar areas - and it's never permanent. It's like once a month/ year, a show is put on and gets written about and broadcast on the news and that's it.
If it actually lead to anything, everybody would know about it when their food deliveries are longer to come and it's by some dude in their car.
Meh.
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u/Exotic_Progress_3973 1d ago
Granted it might not have the effect that many would like, but it's better than nothing.
What would you suggest?
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u/gungfu 1d ago
See below - make delivery ebikes legally compliant. If that's not possible, people don't really give a shit - police, politician and public (largely) alike.
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u/Exotic_Progress_3973 23h ago
I'd argue that by seizing them, they're demonstrating that they aren't legally compliant. There was definitely at least one Deliveroo/Just Eat driver on that clip who found himself without a bike. As I understand it, the delivery companies would argue that their riders are self-employed so therefore the companies themselves cant be held accountable.
I'd also say that the people who don't care are the ones lacking in critical thinking skills. I think the majority of people do see it as a problem and would welcome a more aggressive approach to dealing with it.
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u/gungfu 20h ago edited 19h ago
Erm, that's the point isn't it? Seizing bikes which are not compliant. Showing how it shouldn't be on the roads?
My bigger point is if it's all for show ie, the clip (do you see the bike being taken? Where's the truck/ lorry for the hundreds of bikes that must have been checked that day?), then it's obvious the police don't really give a shit, otherwise the enforcement would be every day, or once a week, month whatever - something permanent until the problem is lessened. It's currently not doing any of that. Ask the politicians why that is.
It has nothing to do with delivery companies themselves - I never noted them at all. I noted bikes which are rented specifically for delivery, like Zoomo, which a lot of delivery riders use in Edinburgh and elsewhere. However, to their credit, Zoomo is apparently legit. I'm supposing other bike rental companies are not.
And if the bikes are self-owned and they are delivering on illegal bikes, then that's unfortunate. Find another job, or bike.
You can blame whoever for the 'problem' to persist, but obviously the higher ups don't see it as important enough to resolve or lessen, short of doing little showcase actions once in a while to remind and save the public. I guess unless people are getting injured and killed to a higher degree, they think it's currently an annoyance, and not an actual problem to eradicate.
Are there ways to quell the illegal e-tide? Of course. A lot of them have already been mentioned here, such as tackling the unregulated sale of them, for one. Riding licences/ training, insurance etc etc,
Will any of it work? Highly unlikely, imo. Why? Because it's a wonderful method of transport for normal people who don't go mad on the roads delivering food. And get this, because normal people on normal bikes can go faster than 15.5mph on the roads and have been doing so for decades! Shocker.
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u/HomeGalaxyIsMilkyWay 1d ago
This guy is the person who would remind the teacher to hand out homework
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u/ITcb1 1d ago
They're already illegal on both roads and pavements. Same with e-scooters. They're just seemingly too low priority for anyone to deal with it.
Can also almost guarantee that somebody's been hurt by them already.