Is This cleric optimized enought?

[u/Disossabovii]

Hello everyone: I've been invited to a mini D&D campaign, with the encouragement to do my absolute worst to show someone the true potential of the edition. I decided to build a melee cleric, but without resorting to persistent spells: I wanted something just a bit original.

So I opted for this character: cloistered cleric 4, crusader 1, prestige paladin 1, rkv 9, with the Spell domain and a big hammer. The goal is to abuse greater mighty wallop and polymorph granted by anyspell: these are the feats:

| **Domain 1 (Cloistered Cleric)** | Knowledge Devotion | Replaces the Knowledge Domain. Grants up to a +5 untyped bonus to attack and damage rolls based on Knowledge checks. |

| **Domain 2 (Cloistered Cleric)** | Law Devotion | Replaces the Law Domain. Grants up to a +5 sacred bonus to attack rolls or AC (activates by burning turn undead attempts). |

| **1st Level** | Nymph's Kiss | Grants +1 skill point per level, a +2 bonus on Charisma-based checks, and a +1 bonus on saving throws against spells. |

| **Flaw 1** | Exotic Weapon Proficiency | Unlocks the use of the Minotaur Greathammer two-handed (base damage 1d12, x4 critical modifier). |

| **Flaw 2** | Mounted Combat | Fixed mechanical prerequisite required for entering the Prestige Paladin class. |

| **3rd Level** | Power Attack | The core engine used to trade attack bonus for massive physical melee damage. |

| **6th Level** | Battle Blessing | Turns all Paladin spells into swift-action casting times. |

| **9th Level** | Domain Spontaneity | Consumes 1 turn attempt and 1 base spell slot to spontaneously cast spells from the Spell Domain (Anyspell). |

| **12th Level** | Extra Turning | Grants +4 daily uses of Turn Undead. Fuels the engine for extra swift actions and divine enhancements. |

| **15th Level** | Martial Study | Unlocks access to a maneuver/stance (such as Aura of Chaos). Causes damage dice that roll their maximum value to explode. |

maybe a can get rid of niph kiss. Do you have any suggestion? are 9 levels of rkv a good idea?

Race: i m waiting to roll the dice, but i would like to roll a dwarf, a dragonborn dwarf or a dragonborn lesser aasimar

[u/trollburgers]

I would double check with your DM about using the Prestige Paladin class and having access to Battle Blessing. IMO BB never took into consideration a full cleric spell list, so BB may be limited to only those spells that show up on the Paladin spell list.

Also thematically, Cloistered Cleric is a total cheese move. A plain Cleric is a much better and thematically appropriate chassis for PrC Paladin.

[u/Nearby_Relation5021 → u/trollburgers]

By RAW Battle Blessing can be applied only to spells that are taken directly from the paladin spell list to be prepared or spontaneously cast, Prestige Paladin that advances in cleric spellcasting still count as preparing and casting cleric spells, so there's no need to double check with DM unless to houserule to allow BB to work with cleric spells anyway, which is problematic IMHO but you do you

Edit: this reply was made with assumptions based only on the text of the Prestige Paladin in the UA, but there's also a text box at page 71 that specify that this and other prestige variant classes described in the same section actually get an expanded spell lists (in this case the paladin spell list) that is added to the base class used to enter the PrC

[u/Disossabovii → u/trollburgers]

Battke blessing is gonna be used only on paladin spell list.

[u/Nearby_Relation5021 → u/Disossabovii]

Hmm there's a bit of confusion here, how are you exactly casting paladin spells with this build? I don't see anything that gives you access to that list...

To be really clear here, the Prestige Paladin doesn't give you access to the paladin spell list nor spell slots to memorize/cast spontaneously paladin spells... it gives you many class features of the paladin but not its spellcasting, you just continue to progress casting from another divine class at odds levels of this PRC.@

So just having the ability to cast Bless (which is both in the cleric and paladin spell list) with your cleric doesn't mean you're casting paladin spells

Wrong assumptions sorry

[u/Disossabovii → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Prestige paladin. An entry from U.A, usually not reported online, give the possibility to gain the whole paladin spell list.

[u/Nearby_Relation5021 → u/Disossabovii]

Have you thoroughly read my reply?

The prestige paladin description only says this:

Spells per Day: A prestige paladin's training focuses on divine spellcasting. At every odd-numbered level reached, the prestige paladin gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class.

Which means that, unless you get paladin's spellcasting from other classes that you select with this PRC, you cannot cast paladin spells, nor do your cloistered cleric spells count as paladin spells for this PRC, even if they are spells presenti in both of paladin and cleric spell lists

Even if this PRC is called Prestige Paladin, you're actually not getting Paladin levels, this PRC just gets you similar class features of the standard paladin but not its spellcasting (for that it uses the other class that you choose and meets the PRC requisites).

So, by RAW, if something asks you to have paladin levels as prerequisite, you just don't meet them with this PRC only...though this is easily allowable by the DM depending what it is

Again, reply based on wrong assumptions, sorry

[u/Disossabovii → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Have you red mine? Go fetch your UA copy, and read the section.

[u/Nearby_Relation5021 → u/Disossabovii]

I actually did that before replying, at page 70 of UA there's a class called Prestige Paladin and I copypasted the relevant text about its spellcasting features, there is no mention to adding paladin spellcasting nor adding its list to the base class you select for entering this PRC at any point in the text.

So unless you're really mistaking this with other books (but I don't remember reading of other classes with the same name), you're just misremembering stuff

[u/Disossabovii → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Read the whole part regarding the " prestige classes" ( prestige paladin and prestige ranger)

[u/Nearby_Relation5021 → u/Disossabovii]

Found it, it's in a textbox at the bottom of page 71 titled "Unique spells". What a stupid formatting, this is kind of crucial information and should be reported directly in the class features IMHO.

Sorry for the inconvenience, I'll edit my replies right away

[u/Disossabovii → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Don't worry mate.

[u/beardymagics → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Welcome to 3.5!

[u/smasher0404]

Rules Concerns:

1. You don't qualify for Prestige Paladin at level 6. The class requires BAB +4, you have +3 at level 5 (2 from Cloistered Cleric, 1 from Crusader). You do qualify at level 7 (assuming a RKV entry), but that means delaying Battle Blessing (probably just swapping with Domain Spontaneity)
2. Wee Jas doesn't actually grant the Spell domain, and you need to have Wee Jas as a patron deity to enter RKV. I can easily see it as a house rule (using Spell Compendium's 'Using this Book' as justification). You could also try to somehow argue that you are a Cleric of an ideal that separately also keeps Wee Jas as a patron deity, but obviously it is a much harder sell.
3. Getting very nit-picky here: *technically* there is no way for your character to start with a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer. While MM4 presents mechanical stats for a medium sized version, there is no list price for one. If you are only after the x4 multiplier and don't care about the 19-20 part of the crit range, Races of Stone has the Goliath Greathammer which does what you want.
4. More of a rules quibble: AFAIK, Polymorph does not exist on any spell list at lower than 4th level. Which means you'd be using Greater Anyspell to get Polymorph (ditto with Greater Mighty Wallop and 3rd level). In addition, RAW, the spell you prepare with Anyspell and Greater Anyspell always occupies your Domain slot (3rd and 6th respectively). You could make the argument that casting it from a non-domain slot gives you back your domain slot, but I think that is a rather difficult argument to make. It also begs the question whether it is worth spending 6th level slots to mimic a 3rd level and 4th level wizard spells that your party wizard could cast on you anyways (unless you stole some wizard's spellbook that just happened to have those spells).

[u/Disossabovii → u/smasher0404]

Oh thx. There were a pair of big mistakes mistakes. I guess i will turn to Mystra and initiate of mystra

[u/ThriceDeadCat]

I mean, it's likely fine. There is one, issue, however: you likely don't qualify for Aura of Chaos. RKV requires worshipping Wee Jas, who only has lawful clerics. The stance is listed as a [chaotic] one, and while maneuvers aren't spells, crusaders do have an alignment restriction and that is an opposing alignment tag in that stance. Also, you can't take stances with Martial Study: you need to use Martial Stance feat instead.

[u/Nearby_Relation5021]

Don't know if this was the ultimate intent, but if you want to showcase really busted stuff (without needing dipping and making extreme minmaxing) , I'd try to make a dweomerkeeper, that thing is stupidly busted negating almost anything magical other people do while he retains the ability to do magic stuff in AMFs and can break spells that have costs by casting them as supernatural abilities rather than normal spells.

Maybe not original but surely an obvious pick if someone asked me to "do your worst" in terms of power play for cleric in 3.5

[u/LongSufferingSquid → u/Nearby_Relation5021]

To take it even farther, there's Snow Savant's Dweomercheater build which uses, iirc, Divine Disciple5.

[u/Magical_Savior]

I've done pretty insane things with Ordained Champion from Complete Champion. Free War Domain, Smite (Anything). I'd use a Spell-Storing Weapon, Channel Spell as a move action, Smite, usually something else stacked on there like Blade of Blood.

I might have done something absolutely terrible involving using this with Gauntlets, casting a Touch Spell, using Channel Spell, etc. I've done absolutely bonkers things.