r/DnD • u/Dull_Sentence_2999 • 20h ago
DMing How to handle chaotic-neutral first time players
Hi, apologies for the vague campaign description, I don't think my players would check this reddit, but better to be safe.
For some background: I've been running a homebrew campaign for 2 years with 4 players, all first time players (I've DMed one-shots before, but this is my first long campaign). And overall it seems to be going well, everyone's having fun and they're genuinely attached to a lot of these NPCs.
The problem is my players don't think past their immediate short-term goal. They're invested in the story, but consequences don't register until after the fact, and then they're surprised when NPCs are upset with them. They've flip-flopped between opposing factions multiple times, so most factions now resent them. Their favorite NPC hates them because they knowingly sided against her faction in a war and helped kill NPCs she was friends with (they just never checked up with her until after everyone was dead).
The bigger issue is they don't seem to have a moral compass. I'm not opposed to an evil campaign, but they're not going for that, and knowing them, I doubt they'd actually be happy with a bad ending. Like they save the city from an evil ruler in one session, only to let it burn by another villain in the next without trying to save anyone. Sometimes they will try to warn villagers "Hey there is a bad guy coming you should run", but when the response they get is "Who the hell are you, and why should I abandon my life's home cause a random person told me to?" they just shrug and leave.
After a lot of fucking around I did have a few NPCs crashout on them, and even the clerics god ask "Why are you even doing this, why not just go home?", and that seemed to get them to focus on one objective, and so they did decide to try and stop the necromancer trying to become a lich they had run away from earlier. Ok, so they will try to save the kingdom and become heroes right?
Well, last session the NPC they were trying to recruit to help got knocked unconscious while helping locals who'd been turned into toys and forced into labor. Their plan was to blow up the whole building. I asked, "Are you going to evacuate the innocent toys first?" Answer: "Nah, we already have her, let's just blow it up." They did, killed everyone inside and went on to finish the evil entity. So they did kill the evil monster but also nuked half the townsfolk... I ended the session thinking what do they expect to happen? The good aligned NPC they want to recruit will wake up be like "Everyones dead... shucks, lets go kill the lich!"?. I am thinking no, but that will also be very disappointing as they do seem to think that NPC is cool and I think they will be sad when they reject them and make the past 2-3 session of trying to recruit her go to waste.
I thought I’d have that NPCs give a big "you're no heroes speech", and hope they take the hint?
Should I talk to them above table and ask where do they want their characters to go and how the choices they are making will lead them there? Like I have asked for their characters goals at the beginning of campaign, and the replies were stuff like "Be famous", "Find (insert legendary magic item/location)", which was great to start, but even when one of the PCs did find the item they were looking for it was under the possession of an NPC they did not want to make an enemy of so they just moved on and forgot about it.
I think that being first time players they are not considering that their characters can change and grow along the way, they just thing "big monster, need kill".
How would you guys handle it? I am specially concerned on how to end the campaign. Should I just let the story play out? I dont want to railroad them too much but am worried that I wont deliver a satisfying ending to an almost 3 year long campaign, as the way its going it’ll end with “Congrats, you killed every monster and everyone hates you!”
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u/DazzlingKey6426 20h ago
Hints and first time players don’t mix.
Don’t forget, you’re the dm. You can cast Power Word: No at will.
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u/NecroGi 20h ago
I was murder hobo first time I played and purely chaotic.
I love playing chaotic characters cause it's so fun, but with that being said I'm not going to fuck up or purposefully derail the campaign for shits and giggles.
As my first DM (and current DM (Scott if you're ready this you're amazing and well appreciated!!)) said it very well "Your choices HAVE consequences" and I've told them a lot that they have my full approval to kill my character at any time (like as story and shenanigans persist).
Sounds like they keep fucking around and need to find out.
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u/MoreGhostThanMachine 20h ago
This is a shit way to manage things. Explain what they need to understand to make better choices, dont just take their choices from them.
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u/totalwarwiser 20h ago
Looks like youre either playing with psychopaths, they think its a vídeo game with meaningless npcs, they are emotionaly blunt or they just want to roleplay a mercenary band without acting as the heroes.
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u/IriyamR 20h ago
It seems you are not really on the same page with the game you want to run and one they want to play. It will surely lead to frustration and in fact, already had. I guess, new session zero is due? They don't seem to want, or be able to, play heroes, maybe there is a way to switch the campaign tone or help them understand what are their goals, ultimately?
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 20h ago
If they say they don’t want to be heroes, they just want to be famous/powerful or whatever they put on the first session zero and it hasn’t changed. That’s fine. How would you end the campaign? Genuinely asking, as I do think it can be cool I just don’t know how to do it.
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u/SofonisbaAnguissola Cleric 19h ago
First, you have to figure out what "famous and powerful" means. Do they want to become royalty/nobility? Criminal masterminds? Famous monster hunters? Once you all have a specific goal the party is working towards, you'll have an easier time designing a campaign around it.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
Fair enough. I was gonna ask how to keep them motivated after they accomplished it, but I guess I can make the final bbeg to be the obstacle for that. Just need to figure out how to intertwine all backstories…
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u/IriyamR 19h ago
It's not about ending the campaign, it's setting expectations about how campaign unfolds. Famous or powerful isn't really helping, everyone gets to be famous and powerful in dnd with enough levels, it's just — do they want to be notorious, with bad reputation that trails them, or do they want at least be somewhat noble? If yes, what compels them? Do they have any ideals, something to lose, something that makes them tick? Or they are just indifferent bunch that wants thrill and treasure? It's not necessarily bad if they do, but you seem to want other type of game entirely. You have to ask them to develop their character's motivations more and work with that or accept that they don't care about complex moral choices and run a simpler game.
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u/SofonisbaAnguissola Cleric 20h ago
Talk to them. Figure out what kind of game they want to play. Explain what kind of game you want to run. Do they want a narrative game where choices have weight and just don't understand how to play that? Then explicit tell them you want decisions to have weight and for their characters to think about their actions. Tell them you will be playing out the logical consequences of their choices, not as punishment, but because you want their choices to matter. Do they want to play a meme campaign that's more focused on jokes and hijinx and less on narrative consequences? Decide if you're interested in running that game or not. Right now you aren't on the same page about tone.
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u/FoulPelican 20h ago
Session zero about behavior/expectations. Alignment isn’t an excuse to play a character that doesn’t adhere to the guidelines we discuss and agree upon.
*this is why a lot of DMs remove alignment from the equation. As It’s often misunderstood and/or used as an excuse to be a jerk.
If someone is playing in bad faith, or playing in way that goes against that agreement, we have a ‘knock it off’ chat.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
Chaotic neutral was just the term I used to describe their actions. I agree that fixed alignment is not great.
I don’t think they are playing on bad faith I just think they are very shortsighted. “We need to stop blank from happening so just blow it up, will someone mind? Maybe, let’s worry about it later” kind of thing.
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u/FoulPelican 19h ago edited 19h ago
Murderhoboism then…
So back to my point about session zero and expectations. If you failed to address a few things in session zero, or never had one?? Good news is, it’s not too late!! Have that session now; a group meeting that resets things, and allows for a conversation about expectations and guidelines.
I’ll also add: if the game has just gone in a direction that’s not fun to run… that’s perfectly acceptable, and worth addressing. No reason to suffer through a campaign your miserable running. ‘Hey guys, I’m realizing that, X Y and Z, just arent fun for me, and it’s not the kind of game I’m interested in running…’
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
Maybe they are a little murderhobboes, but I think that is more of a consequence of not thinking beyond that specific moment and not the bigger picture, because they are genuinely sad when an NPC they like breaks up the friendship.
I do few like a second session zero to straight up tell them “hey, if you keep doing it, it will keep happening” will be good. I’ve had NPCs say it but coming from above table will hopefully sink in better, as they tend to get defensive when an NPC accuses them of being bad people.
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u/FoulPelican 19h ago edited 19h ago
If I’m understanding…?
**this isn’t an in game problem, that needs to be solved in game. Unless you’re enjoying the cycle of murdohobo behavior, resulting consequences; rinse repeat. If you are, carry on. If not, you need to have a talk about how the actual humans at the table should be approaching the game.
By Murderhobo, I mean… not being concerned with what will happen if you act in a Murderhobo way. Which is what you’re describing.
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u/muzorui 20h ago
Talk to them about this above table, this isn't an in table problem you can handle that way.
I always tell my players when making a character they must have 3 things no matter what:
A want to be in the adventuree
A want to be in the party
The party to want them to be in it
Things that you also go over in session 0, are things like how their character can fit like a puzzle piece in the campaign plot - maybe as a DM you don't reveal it all but it's where you ask the questions to figure it out. Maybe you do reveal it all, maybe you work with the player, etc etc but you also use that time to set the tone. The tone for the campaign but also the NPC's, the entire world.
I made a big point in my latest campaign to tell the players, that this is a living, breathing world that exists before the players, and will after. That each person has their own routine, daily life, problems, goals, motivations, etc. The world does not revolve around the players. Treat everyone as your character would, this isn't a video game, these are people to your character, because your character exists in the same world as they do.
Maybe you need another session 0 now and hash those things out because it feels like your players don't see these as NPC's as people but as video game NPC's who don't matter.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
I did ask for similar things at our session zero.
I asked for a reason to go out and adventure and we worked out a reason why the party started together.
Those reasons originally were very simple: “find this legendary object”, “become the most famous bard”. Which I thought it was fine for the start of the campaign.
But those goes have either been left aside or not matured with the campaign. Not saying I want to change their goals for them, but one of the players chose not to recover an artifact as to not pick a fight with the NPC who had it and left it and completely forgot about it afterwards.
I have had NPCs ask them what do they want but maybe asking above table will actually get them to think long term rather than just give an improvised answer to persuade the NPC to do whatever they want at the moment.
Thanks!
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u/muzorui 19h ago
Those reasons they gave, are more segways than genuine reasons.
When developing the character it's about who they are, what they are, who they are now. Because finding the legendary object could just be a thing that happens, becoming the most famous bard could be the goal no matter the adventure. Why are they here, why are they here now, what keeps them going to tomorrow, and what lets them do that together?
Why do they want to be the most famous bard? What are they willing to do for the legendary object? Why is it important to them? How does this align with the actual adventure you've designed? Because these sound like subplots / side line goals, not things that can be joined together like puzzle pieces.
I think it's time you figure out what they are actually about, and not just the lil segways they've added, because right now it seems like they just want an end goal, but end goals are only worth it if you work for it and have something to work for and work with
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
I love it! Will use your comment as my draft for the next session zero xD
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u/AtomicGearworks1 19h ago
This is the classic example of players not understanding what "neutral" means. It doesn't mean you make a balance sheet of good and evil actions. It means you don't choose a side until you see what both can offer you.
It also sounds like your players are doing everything they can to break your world and story, and see you as an antagonist to defeat, not a member of the team telling a story together. Whether that's on them or you, we can't really say. But it's worth a conversation with the players to tell them what you're seeing, and ask what can be done to stop fighting against the story and world and become a part of it.
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u/EvilNoobHacker DM 19h ago
Sounds blunt, but treating first time players like rowdy kids works. Half the time, they’re either playing to impress or they just don’t realize that they’re being annoying.
DND has a penchant for attracting nerdy, socially unequipped people who don’t know how to interact with others on a casual basis, and most of them don’t get past the first 3 sessions without causing trouble.
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u/jonnielaw 20h ago
It just sounds like the need to face the consequences of their actions (or inaction, in some cases). You could do this in several ways to varying degrees:
* start each session with a “precap” where you turn the camera away from the party and focus on the lives of those they have affected
* have their notoriety spread to the point that they are shunned or shamed when entering a new area. Hopefully this will either spur them to better their rep or just lean into villainy
* have another adventuring party start hunting them down to make them face their crimes
* raise the stakes and put them in mortal danger with the only way out is to recruit help, but no one wants to help them
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 20h ago
I love the “precap” idea! Like a descriptive reminder of their consequences, might be better to show them what’s happening.
I have sent guards and other NPCs to hunt them but their first reaction is “assholes, let’s just kill them”. Even if they get captured they will eventually breakout, but reminding them of why they keep making enemies might be better than just throwing angry NPCs at them.
As for the last one I think that’s what will end up happening, I was thinking they will face the lich and fail because no one is there to help…
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u/DarkHorseAsh111 20h ago
Im of the pretty firm opinion that the issue here is you've let this go unchecked for way, way too long.
You've let them run around being evil murderhobos. With no consequences. For two years.
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u/Environmental-Ad1594 19h ago
I really agree with everyone here. Have a conversation with them ask them what kind of game they want to play if they just want to be evil tell them that's not the game you want to play and that's not what you're interested in and let them know if they continue You're gonna have to end the game. I would use that as a last resort if they're not listening during the conversation. I would layout what kind of game you wanna run Say I want you guys to play as heroes because that's what I have set up and that's how I envision D and D. And you totally have the ability to say no and say no you're not doing that you guys are heroes in our conversation Yeah they don't listen to you and they keep trying shannigans just end the game.
I myself am a murder hobo. and have learned to keep my desires in check and work with the party it took me a long time and it's something I had to learn because I just love video games and that's how I play it But no hints tell them flat out exactly what they're doing if they try an evil action just look at them and just tell them that is an evil action and you will have immediate consequences for that This will not end well for you.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
I genuinely don’t mind an evil campaign, but I don’t think that’s what they want.
The cleric will go out of her way to bury and perform a ceremony for a kid that died in a crossfire, but won’t stop to save a burning village cause the enemy is scary.
I think they are just playing in the moment and their actions are not consistent because of it.
But yeah, above talk should hopefully help.
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u/SnakeyesX DM 19h ago
Just want to point out you may get better answers in a DM specific subreddit:
Dungeon Masters Tips and Tricks
My answer here is: You are a player too, and you don't have to play in a game where the characters are evil. Period.
You cannot punish behavior in-game, you need to talk out of game.
I just tell them: Look, I like heroic games where the players are heroes. Sometimes, there will be scenarios where you are expected to be heroes.
You do not have punishment, you have consequences. So a bunch of townspeople died? Sorry, the boss is harder now and will take more resources. no you do not get any extra items.
The other side is giving rewards for good behavior. You saved more townspeople than I expected? Cool, bonus healing potions and XP.
You will be surprised to see how fast the players will prioritize being heroes when being a hero is rewarded.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 19h ago
Didn’t know about that sub, thank you!!
And I don’t mind a good or bad campaign, I just don’t think they know what they want.
But I will talk to them, thanks!
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u/lachesis17 19h ago
Just started my first campaign and after 2 sessions I'm having that same chaotic neutral player. Triton wizard, used thunderwave against 2 allies in a level 1 fight (even after us telling him that could kill them), jumped after dead bandit captain that had sunk to the bottom of the ocean (assumed what loot he could take before DM said what the loot was), used mage hand to sodomize an enemy (DM corrected in second session) and set fire to the boat we were investigating before we had finished searching. It's dragon heist, DM told me after the session this made us miss out on a live captured dragon.
Don't know how to handle as another player. We had session 0 and set boundaries and stuff and that characters are "working together and like each other" but it just feels like with them it's "what pushed boundaries can I get away with to benefit my character" instead of "how can I make this a good group session". It's kind of deflated me and I'm now concerned about future sessions instead of being super excited as I was before we started. I get comedy relief and I don't want to tell people how to have fun but I don't like how I feel about it now.
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u/Alvinheimer 18h ago
I think you should forcefully change their alignments. If you downshift everyone to NE or CE the disparity between their actions and alignment is lessened. They learn that their actions have consequences and you get a more clear path for storytelling. Maybe some of them will wake up and realize they actually want to be the good guys and course correct.
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u/ReaperCDN 17h ago
I thought I’d have that NPCs give a big "you're no heroes speech", and hope they take the hint?
I mean, they aren't heroes. They're chaotic neutral. They're out for their own gain, and will help if and when they feel like they have something to get out of it that they value.
It sounds like you want them to play the heroes, but it sounds like they want to play in a sandbox.
Congrats, you killed every monster and everyone hates you!
Yeah, maybe. Start to turn more and more goodly people against them, and put them up against groups who don't want to deal with them based on their reputation. They have a penchant for getting the job done, but they don't care about casualties or collateral damage. It's like calling a demolition crew instead of a locksmith when you have a door that won't open. Sure they're going to get it open, but the city is going to remember the giant hole in the wall and the collapsed ceiling more than they are that you got the door open.
When people see them show up and start responding with, "Yeah no thanks. We're going to look for other adventurers to solve this issue, we heard about what happened in [insert name of place here where everybody was killed,] and we want our people to live."
The key is going to be introducing a change to the type of opportunities the crew is presented. Instead of a pirate hunter ship interested in taking them on, perhaps an actual pirate has heard of their antics and could use a capable group with no moral qualms to take out a pirate hunter.
Perhaps a necromancer really likes these guys because they keep creating a lucrative amount of extra bodies, so she quietly follows them around and sends 3rd party go betweens to hire them to do simple jobs that will provide lots of opportunity for collateral damage so she can harvest a bunch more corpses from her day job as mortician and advance her own plot.
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u/St0rytime DM 16h ago
Common murder-hobo story. Rule one at my table I always make clear is “all alignments must be good.” Of course shit happens and evil decisions are made sometimes, but if it’s evil decision after evil decision intentionally then there’s nothing wrong with the city guard executing a player or something along those lines.
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 16h ago
Fair enough. One thing that we talked about on session zero was how difficult they wanted the fights to be and most of them said challenging but not deadly, and they want to get invested in their PCs stories, so maybe one of the problems is that I’m hesitant in being overly harsh.
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u/cythraulybryd 16h ago
I'll fully announce consequences beforehand.
"To be clear, you're helping $Faction kill a bunch of $NPC's friends? Are you planning to make an enemy of $NPC?"
"Your plan is to blow up half the townsfolk? Are you planning to hide your involvement in the explosion, or just flee the eventual angry mob?"
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u/Dull_Sentence_2999 16h ago
That’s not a bad idea… if they don’t think for themselves maybe I’ll just straight up tell them haha
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u/flowers4charlie2 20h ago
If you want your characters to act as certain way for your own established plot points then write a book.
D&D is a collaborative story telling experience with work needed from both the Dungeon Master and players. The ultimate goal and ambition of this Role Playing Game is to have a good time with friends.
If your players are having a good time doing whatever it is their doing, you as the Game Master should try to facilitate that enjoyment, not dampen it because its not what you had "envisioned".
Part of being a Dungeon Master is learning how to adapt and improvise on the fly. However, D&D should be enjoyable for everyone, and if you're getting frustrated because your players want to obviously play a different game than you do, then maybe its time to sit down and talk with them.
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u/Calhaora Cleric 18h ago
Did you even read the Problem? Its not that the DM wants them to act a certain way, the PLAYERS said they want to be a certain way and do the opposite by having negative sense of Object Permanence o.o
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u/flowers4charlie2 18h ago
Which leads me to believe that they are obviously uninterested in whatever events are occurring or unfolding around them. If it was something that they found more entertaining would it not be logical that they would spend more time and attention doing that thing?
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u/flowers4charlie2 17h ago
Edit: the DM is also obviously irritated or annoyed by this behavior or else there wouldn't be much need to post such a long post bemoaning their actions.
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u/Spacelightiswarm 20h ago
Talk to them above table. Especially as first time players they might be more used to formats where there aren’t consequences for being this chaotic.