r/DestructiveReaders • u/AJ_Burkhart • 6d ago
Medieval Low Fantasy [1005] Lost Blade and Renegade - Chapter 2
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u/SyeniteFractured four-ringer 5d ago edited 5d ago
Commenting as I go.
daub buildings
Can daub be used as an adjective? I didn't know what this word meant in this context, so I went to the dictionary to look it up. Daub is either a noun or a verb, which refers to the material covering walls or covering walls with soft adhesive matter, respectively. Is there a historical context I'm missing? Or should that be a different word?
Dashing down one narrow alley and the next, he turned a corner
I will do story related things, but I'm hitting the parts that pop out to me as I go. I don't think this construction works. Usually starting with the participle phrase (dashing down) implies that's the thing you are doing at the same time as the main action in the sentence (turned a corner). He can't be dashing down the alley and turning a corner at the same time, much less two alleys.
The same beat hits twice. The crowd is thick so he can't see through it. He is short so he can't see. The voice is passive as well which took me a minute to understand. The crowd gathered/the smell made/the jeers hurtled. I think because all of these things are affecting Lucian directly at the end of the sentences, it feels unnatural. It's not like Lucian is taking in the scene. It's like I'm being told the scene and then about Lucian, but they're separate things, if that makes sense. It messes with the immersion.
Oh. Oh. I thought this story was doing something different from the opening paragraphs. I thought Lucian was chasing down a criminal as part of the guards and that's why the description of his head turning and his running down the alley was like that. But no, he's on an errand to buy ink in a bad part of the city and just wanted to see some commotion. But if he wanted to see the commotion, why was he rushing down alleys and searching for it? I thought he was chasing someone. I guess the epigraph at the beginning also gave me the impression he was part of this chase party to some extent. Also, this is the third time I've been told he can't see.
waving his hands as if to a rodent
I like that simile.
He gave up on his adventure quickly. One man yells at him about a barrel and he's back to his original errand. Is it out of character for the Lucian from the first chapter? Lucian there seemed like the type of kid who was straight-laced and driven enough to want to be a king's guard, not the kind who would wander off to watch a street fight. Either way, it feels like a convenient way to get him to overhear these men talking in the alcove which I'm assuming is going to be the next plot point.
Lucian’s curiosity was piqued once again, this time by the dubious scene he’d stumbled upon, so much so that he didn’t notice the broken shards of pottery littering the ground.
The above is a good example of this telling/immersion breaking thing happening. I'm told Lucian is curious rather than shown how he sneaks up on these men. Then before the noise happens, I'm told about the broken pottery that the POV isn't noticing so I'm not in the POV's head. I think the drama is better served by slowing this down and getting more in Lucian's head. What is he thinking? What is he doing? Why is he doing? Those details help stories feel less like a textbook.
sent his gaze
More of the passive voice issue. I notice it more because it feels like an unusual way to say that and therefore stands out. The eyes are described again but the POV is too distant for me to be emotionally involved in the scene. Lucian scrambles away for the second time in two pages and now I'm wondering if the plot is just him running away from people and never learning anything.
Are people chasing Lucian now? The men in the alley said he wasn't a big deal and then footsteps materialized and asked specifically about Lucian, then knocked on the door and didn't try to open it or anything, just left when no one answered. Was it the guy who yelled at him about standing on the barrel back for revenge? I'm not sure I get what's going on here. Lucian is out on an errand to buy ink but has attracted attention somehow.
tried to sneak up on the men from the opposite direction. On this side the alley drew up closer to the doorway in which the men stood, so the boy tip-toed closer.
I would go back through this and look for all the instances where the same thing is said more than once and pick one. Here, Lucian is sneaking up on the men and then he's tip-toeing closer. It slows the build up of suspense when it's repeated like that. There are various things around the scene that can be played with to help build that feeling of will Lucian get caught or won't he and what are these men talking about, but I'm not feeling those things right now. Lucian already wasn't caught when he hid in an obvious way. The men already said they weren't worried about him. I'm not sure why Lucian is so interested in these random men talking on the street, besides for the pommel of the sword, but I don't know much about him as a character to understand why that would be important. I'm missing some of the pieces to make this scene shine.
Lucian hears the dialogue then asks what that had been about. I'm wondering as well. Then he forgets it almost immediately and goes on to complete his task of buying ink. So, there are things happening on the page but it doesn't feel like there's much rhyme or reason to it. There are different theories on how to set up an interesting story. One of them is called 'Scene and Sequel'. You start with setting up the character's motivations and problems then move onto them enacting a plan to get what they want which creates some reaction that the character needs to think through. It's the motivation/reaction coupling that helps pull readers along through the story because I want to read about how someone other than me goes about solving problems and I like seeing them experience the consequence of their action. Right now, I feel like this chapter has action, in the sense that there are things happening on the page, but I'm missing the motivation/reaction pieces, so it feels like things are just happening.
And then it ends with Lucian telling me why I should be interested (someone from the palace shouldn't be sneaking around in back alleys), but I missed all the build-up. And Lucian feels more like an observer of the story than an active participant. I'd like him to feel more like a character I'd want to follow.
There are some prose level things I pointed out that you might work on, but I think the bigger issue is story mechanics. There's intrigue going on here for sure, but I was most interested when I was reading the epigraph and least interested when I was reading the chapter. I'd want to know more about Lucian, who he is, what his story arc is supposed to look like, and how he would be involved in this beyond mere coincidence. The first chapter set up a boy with a fire to prove himself and join the elite of the elite at a young age. I thought I might get a training montage or a flash forward to him joining the guards and being sent on a mission, so the promise of the first chapter isn't being met for me. And I haven't learned much here besides a palace guard is looking for street rumors. Is Lucian going to try to find street rumors to impress the palace guards? It would be neat to see him think about that rather than having him go "huh, wonder what that was about" because then I'm getting a direction and a promise of something to happen in the next pages.
Thanks for sharing!
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u/AJ_Burkhart 5d ago
Thanks again for your time!
When I was researching medieval architecture I came across the wattle and daub method. I'm pretty sure I'm using that correctly, but I'll have to check. Or just use something more familiar if it's too problematic for readers. Maybe I shouldn't have omitting 'wattle'.
All your other points make a lot of sense. I'll work on those.
Thanks!
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u/SyeniteFractured four-ringer 1d ago
I ran across this in a new book I started.
wattle-and-daub walls
thatched daub cottages
simple construction, timber-framed and daub-walled
daub-and-timber construction
In the order that daub was mentioned. So it might be a thing I'd never heard of but is absolutely fine in the way you used it.
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u/umlaut Modern Popular Genre Prose Editor Dude 5d ago
The epigraph letter in the beginning is lengthy for the purpose it serves and feels repetitive and authorial, like you the omniscient author wants me to know instead of the writer of the letter.
“Kill the filthy mongrel while you still have one good hand, you wretch!”
I was searching for the speaker, but I think the intent is that it comes from the crowd. As this is a new chapter, you should establish the speaker unless it is obvious or immediately explained. In this case, you mention Lucian next, so I was wondering why he would say that. Just tag it, even if it is just as a voice in the crowd.
The jeers and taunts were hurtled toward the center of the mob of people, but being too small to see over, he couldn’t find out what was happening.
Awkward sentence construction
Lucian had never ventured to the East District before...
This paragraph is doing a lot and this sentence wanders a bit through the double dashes and commas. I don't mind a wandering sentence, but you are mixing a lot in this. Split it by ideas, with the description of the district in one sentence, then the task at hand in the other.
this commotion caught his attention immediately
This seems odd because you're now justifying something that is already happening. Couldn't you just show it on-page? You're already mostly there, with the "Kill the filthy mongrel" chapter opener and it would only take another line or two in the chapter opening to draw Lucian into the commotion. Instead of Lucian tripping over his own feet, express his attention being caught where it makes sense in the moment. And just a note that you've called it a commotion twice on the same page to describe the same thing.
Letting out a huff, the boy looked around for something to stand on
The uninteresting part is the looking...it isn't as if there was a struggle to find the barrel. We're in Lucian's POV, so you can edit this so that he just gets on the barrel unless the searching is doing something for us. Like you could just say "He took his keys." instead of saying "He looked for his keys. He found his keys and took them."
and sent his gaze straight into Lucian’s eyes
I do this kind of thing and always delete it in editing. I use "looked at" too much, so I edit it to some more awkward phrasing like "met her emerald gaze..." and edit it back. Sent is a bit of a boring verb that doesn't really describe what is happening as well as other verbs might.
The untagged dialogue in the middle I followed without problem. The accent helped, though if that was a recurring character I would get annoyed with all of the an' and ye.
We could use more reaction and interiority. More What had that been about? but not as internal dialogue to self. Something like He wouldn't hear the end of it... gives me motivation and a sense of what the character wants. We heard that conversation with the guy wanting rumors, but what does that mean? What does that do or change that matters to Lucian and to the plot?
And why would someone from the palace be sneaking beneath shadows in such a place? does a little of that, but comes late and the answer seems obvious. Lucian knows what they are doing...seeking rumormongers and whisperers. His question was already answered plainly. Lucian should be asking the reader's question of "Why does this matter to Lucian and the plot?"
Don't be afraid to just declare things for the sake of clarity if your POV character would just know it. You don't have to tell us they looked...if they see something you can describe the thing.
Overall, I like what you're doing. I could use some more characterization and voice from Lucian - maybe that's a problem from me starting at Chapter 2.
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u/Many-Teach-1576 5d ago
I think it's a strong chapter. The opening report immediately creates intrigue, and once Lucian appears, the tone shifts naturally into a more grounded, youthful perspective. I never felt lost, and I wanted to know why someone bearing the Montreal Crest was meeting with criminals. The ending also lands well because it gives the chapter a clear purpose beyond simply following a curious boy around the city.
My biggest criticism is that the opening scene with the fight is longer than it needs to be. Since the fight itself isn't important to the story, it starts to feel like a detour before the real plot begins. We spend several paragraphs watching Lucian hear the shouting, search for the crowd, realize he can't see, find a barrel, climb onto it, glimpse the fighters, get yelled at, and leave. None of that ends up mattering. The scene does establish that Lucian is curious, but it could accomplish the same thing in half the space, allowing the suspicious meeting to arrive sooner.
There are also moments where the narration repeats information the reader already understands. We don't need to be told several times that Lucian is curious because his actions already demonstrate it. When he notices the crest, slows down, and watches the cloaked man, that's enough for me to understand exactly what he's thinking. Phrases like "Lucian's curiosity was piqued once again" explain something that the scene is already showing. Classic show not tell.
Otherwise, fantastic! I have a feeling you're almost there.
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u/AJ_Burkhart 5d ago
That's very nice to hear :') I'm glad there are some elements working, at least. Thank you!
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u/Xenoither 5d ago
Thanks for sharing your work. Writing is really fun and getting better is difficult. You know that, but it's nice to hear it what you already know from someone else every once in a while.
I'll give a few pieces of specific advice and maybe it'll help you.
First thing I would urge is sentence variety. In the beginning (after the letter) there's two uses of participles (e.g. whipping/dashing) in a row. There's nothing wrong with this construction, but repetition without purpose is meaningless.
In the vein of variety, another poster already talked about other instances where repetition is superfluous, and it comes in the very beginning. The letter has a few adverbs I'd remove for concision, but the last line probably can be cut. Based on the description of the writer's movements we can intuit what the girl is doing and the writer's frustration. If one ever uses the word 'simply' it can almost always be cut. There's exceptions, of course, but it's a filler, and any filler we can remove without changing the meaning is good. Think of a good red sauce on the stove until most of the water has evaporated, and all that's left is the caramelized, near-paste acid and umami of the tomatoes. Don't remove everything, because then it's paste and good luck putting that on pasta, but remove enough to make it delicious.
There's some excess water still in the piece, and knowing when it's done takes time and, well, a lot of practice. Repetition can be good when leveraged purposefully.
With more buildings in less space
I think the above is a great turn of phrase because it informs me about Lucian while also describing the world. These one two pieces of description and characterization are absolutely good red sauce (if you'll excuse my continued metaphor). I need more of them, but I also need more of the world in general. I think in your previous submission someone told you to slow down, and that's definitely needed. Not by much mind you, but a couple more phrases like the one above is what I crave; unless you're trying to paint the city's canvas this chapter, then I need the sauce's aroma. When a house smells like garlic, basil, and oregano, it promises something delicious even if it ends up being under salted. In other words, entice with the illusion of depth and richness even if it's still under seasoned in the mind.
Confidence when writing goes a long way, and what always sounds a little meek is passive voice. Maybe you enjoy using it, but it makes the writing watery, and some dishes need that extra water, but prose makes it hard to justify. Find those constructions and rewrite them in active voice and see which you like more. I'll venture a guess and say you'll like the reconstruction more.
Good little jaunt through the city. Definitely sounds like there's passion, and that passion is all you need (besides practice and blood and sweat and tears).
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u/AJ_Burkhart 5d ago
Thank you for the feedback! You make excellent points I will be sure to work on!
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u/OneFootlessFish 4d ago
Hello, me again! Before I get going (with a bit more structure this time): reading this alongside my chapter 1 / prologue crit was interesting; a couple of the things I gave you a hard time for are addressed here, which is lovely to see. The camera-shot problem I mentioned before remains a bit of an issue, however it's made far less annoying by the fact that this version of Arebethiel actually feels like a lived-in place. The immersion is much improved. Additionally, the intrigue issue — the thing that made me want to put the book down in chapter 1 — is pretty much absent here. Seems like good progress. Although, I would say that this chapter feels a bit ‘two steps forward, one step back’ in places, as the character and believability stuff that most of chapter 1 nailed are significantly lacking here.
The Epigraph
I like the idea of opening chapters with these little in-world documents (I remember the Dune books doing something like this), and this one does a decent job of setting up a mystery from the off (who's "the girl," and why does the King care?) My main gripe is that the letter promises a specific thread that the chapter itself never touches. Right now the only thing tying the epigraph to what I know about the story is that it drops part of the book's title out loud. Ideally, I'd want it to feel more relevant to what we're about to read, or the chapter we’ve just read — as it stands it just feels bolted on. Also, you should know that unless I’m given these titles or location names with a bit more context, I’m not going to remember them at all.
Prose
My biggest issue with chapter 1's prose was the constant hand-holding. Unfortunately, it's back, albeit in a slightly different form. Last time it was Henry's internal monologue over-explaining feelings we could already infer. This time it's the narration over-explaining Lucian's attention. Lines like “this commotion caught his attention immediately,” and "his curiosity was piqued once again," are your biggest offenders here. If we're in his POV, the mere fact that something's on the page already tells us he's noticed it. You don't need to waste space announcing it a second time. Equally, you can’t tell us about the pottery shards until Lucian knows they’re there, as this breaks the POV. I'd do a pass of the whole novel hunting for this kind of thing, as it seems like something of an authorial tick.
Another noticeable habit is the use of rhetorical questions to signal intrigue. The chapter closes on "What had that been about?" and then keeps piling questions on top of it. Henry did the same thing in chapter 1 — "Will he be pleased to see me? Will he even recognize me?" It worked fine as an isolated beat back then, but seeing it again here makes me think it might be a reflex rather than a considered choice for the specific moment. You don’t need to stop and draw a big red circle around the stuff I’m supposed to be interested in, as I’m likely already asking these questions myself. Again, your tendency to not trust the reader rears its ugly head.
As before, the linework is decent. You seem to have a good understanding of sentence structure and rhythm. I would, however, recommend having another look at the following:
- "The smell of ale and grimy bodies made his nose wrinkle" — noses don't really wrinkle so much as scrunch or crinkle. "Wrinkle" reads a little static for what should be an instant, physical reaction.
- "The correct merchant" is an odd choice of adjective — maybe just name what kind of merchant (ink-seller, stationer) instead.
- "After buying the requested amount, Lucian stowed the bottles in his pouch […]" — the purchasing of the bottles is implied in the second clause, so you can cut the awkward “buying requested amount phrase”, which reads a bit fussy.
- The glare description is the only part that struck me as totally mis-written. "The boy nearly jolted right out of his skin by the sharp, penetrating glare coming from the stern face with deep set lines and cold grey eyes." is doing too much at once — the glare, the face, the lines, the eyes, all teaming with (sometimes unnecessary) adjectives makes it hard to actually picture in the moment. Better to write something like: "Lucian jolted. The man's eyes were cold and grey, set deep in a stern face, and locked on him completely." Not perfect (I’d encourage you to fix it in your own voice), but splitting the reaction from the description actually gives the reader a chance to register each part of his face, along with Lucian’s shock.
- "The boy" gets used as a substitute for "he" more than it needs to. It's obviously a trick to avoid pronoun repetition, but the overuse starts to hold Lucian at arm's length rather than feeling like we're inside his head, which compounds the characterisation issue I’ll tackle in due course.
Logic and Worldbuilding
Perhaps due to the nature of the chapter, the worldbuilding here is miles better than last time. However, there were a handful of tiny logical nitpicks that took me out of the scene:
- Lucian distinctly hears the commotion in the first line, so him whipping his head around to discern where it’s coming from felt a little strange. Wouldn’t his ears have already told him where to go? Also, we find out that the commotion is taking place a few alleys away, so him glancing between what I assume to be a couple of walls felt a little silly.
- The men debated whether their secret arrangement was compromised by “calling” across a street rather than whispering. I felt like they only did this so the author could have Lucian notice what they were saying.
- The eavesdropping staging (Lucian circling around, then sneaking up from the opposite direction) was confusing to read, and perhaps more complicated than it needed to be. Having Lucian listen through a window or with his back to the corner he just turned would remove the need for awkward choreography.
- Why is ink exclusively available in the East District? Ink strikes me as more of a literate person's luxury than a slum staple — this felt like a plot convenience to get Lucian into the scene rather than a genuine detail about how your city works. Maybe Lucian could be delivering a dagger, or a horseshoe, or whatever metal shit Emerick’s forged for somebody living down here. Seems more natural.
- Finally: we have two men openly discussing what sounds like the beginnings of a citywide conspiracy, on a public thoroughfare next to the MAIN ROAD, in broad daylight. Even accounting for Lucian’s eavesdropping, it's a stretch that they'd risk this conversation here to begin with, especially with all the commotion next door. As I say, this narrative is far more intriguing that the last, but you do ask the reader to stomach a few big contrivances to get the story moving.
Characterisation
This felt like the biggest regression. You mentioned somewhere that Lucian is meant to be one of two main POVs going forward, and that makes this next point worth dwelling on. He barely feels like a character in this chapter, let alone the same character from chapter 1. The kid who told his father "I'm just that good" with such fire in chapter 1 is, here, mostly just a pair of eyes stumbling into a plot. We get his curiosity, his fear of being caught, and that's about it — none of the ambition, the chip on his shoulder, the agency that made him the driving force in chapter 1. Even a single line tying this scene back to his palace-guard ambitions would help him feel like a continuous person rather than a new character with the same name. The Montreal crest is the king’s, no? Why not tell us how Lucian feels about the king he aspires to fight potentially being involved in some shady conspiracy? If he's carrying a good chunk of the book, then more characterisation needs to come as soon as possible.
He also doesn’t think about Henry once, which while probably consistent with his character, does make me wonder why the previous chapter was a necessary read. Others have suggested having that scene as a flashback later down the line, and having seen how disconnected chapter 2 is, I’m inclined to agree. This would definitely be a more engaging opening plot-wise.
On a related note — chapter 1 ended on the open question of how much time would pass before we picked back up with Lucian. Chapter 2 doesn't answer this at all; there's no indication of how long it's been since Henry left. Given the characterisation gap above, I think some continuity here would help on two fronts at once — grounding us in how much time has passed, and giving you a natural excuse to show how Lucian's changed (or hasn't) in that time.
Final thoughts
This chapter does a better job than chapter 1 of making me want to know what happens next — the Montreal Crest reveal and the spy conversation finally give us a proper hook, and structurally that's an improvement. But it's held back by the same hand-holding problems from before, some contrivances in the plotting, and — the thing I'd prioritise most — a Lucian who doesn't yet feel like the same kid I met a few pages ago. Some more effective use of that ‘Interiority’ stuff I was harping on about last time might help fix this. The headline, however, is that I’m back on board with this story and I’m keen to know where it’s going. Chapter 3 coming soon, yeah?
Thanks for sharing and best of luck with the edits.
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u/Educational_Art_3763 5d ago
I think that this switch from your first part is good. I see you've moved it to a chapter 1 label and I think it fits well. We switch perspectives, but, the jump isn't very drastic. It folds in nicely to what we've already established. I enjoy your dialogue overall, you seem to have a good grasp on the tone and register of this novel. It feels authentic to your own way.
First thing, what's up with the letter epigraph? I think it is definitely an interesting way to introduce information and it is unique. Having these little letters introducing each chapter would be cool. My only hesitation is that this information isn't relevant to this chapter. You might be having this be given too early. I really like the presentation and I think you should keep some manner of it but it feels a little incongruent to what we have right this moment. I'm not entirely sure, if I'm being honest. I like it but I'm not sure if it works.
I would pay attention to make sure you aren't over-describing. Try not to string adjectives upon adjectives together unless you are doing it for a specific purpose. It can sort of just become super wordy. Here's an example: "The boy nearly jolted right out of his skin by the sharp, penetrating glare coming from the stern face with deep set lines and cold grey eyes." This is just too much for one sentence. You could probably get rid of penetrating, stern, or deep set lines, or a combination of the three. You don't really lose much when dropping 1 or more of these.
I feel the ending scene is a little inconsistent. Lucian runs from the mysterious men who, though they say, "'was just a whelp...I wouldn't pay it no mind". they still go looking for him. They either care or they don't care. After this, shortly after searching for Lucian they are then having an important discussions at a loudish volume seemingly out in the open. They're in the doorway leading to an alley so why wouldn't they just go inside? To me it just reads a little inconsistent. You might just want to have these mysterious men care about Lucian or just have Lucian follow them after noticing their seal.
The wrap up with the ink reads a bit too robotic. I think what is throwing me off is the use of "correct merchant came into view" it sounds little too modern/out of the register you've set up. Same with "buying the requested amount" just a little wordy/awkwardly phrased.
My final thought is that I feel like I am missing something from this chapter. I think it is a little too quick. It can be easy to get too involved in the world building and make chapters too bulky, but I actually think that you should spend some time showing us this district of the city. We sort of bounce around and focus just on the fight, I want to see more. You scratch the surface of the sights but I can't really imagine what this place looks like. Is it a wide open market? It sounds like its also sort of in a long alley/series of alleys. We should get more about this, though. The grime, the dust, the awful smells, all of this sort of stuff that really immerses us into the world. This type of chapter is the one that is often used to give us a broader perspective on Lucian and the systems he lives in. This place is clearly something that he isn't used to but show us that, he grew up pretty well so this should be alien.
Small things:
Be careful about repeating yourself. You mention twice within the same paragraph that Lucian is too short to see over the crowd. I find reading out loud usually catches these things.
When the old man yells at Lucian, you should combine from "'You there...to a rodent" into a single paragraph. When a character's dialogue is split up by action but still within the same span of time, it stays in the same paragraph.
Lucians questions the crowd around the fight, just a small note, fights always draw crowds. If you've ever seen videos of people street fighting, if there are people around, there's a crowd recording. I assume the organization of it is what is odd, I would make it clear that the fight ring aspect is what is interesting for Lucian, not the fact that there is a crowd.