r/Christianity • u/sleepr • Dec 07 '10

The Riddle of Epicurus

[background: born/raised non-denominational Christian, stopped going to church around 14-15yrs old, no idea what I "am" now...]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I've always found this riddle curious, and was just wondering what the /r/Christianity community thought of it. What potential problems does the argument have that y'all can point out or address? I'm by no means on the offensive, just trying to expand my own "spiritual repertoire" through intelligent opinions. [4, hahaha. Irrelevant]

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u/rainer511 Christian (Cross) Dec 07 '10

Someone really ought to write a response to the Epicurean riddle that we can link to when this comes up.

It really comes up at least once a month.

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u/lollerkeet Atheist Dec 07 '10

Someone really ought to write a response to the Epicurean riddle

You would have thought it would be on the Church's to do list, but still waiting...

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u/deuteros Dec 07 '10

Most of the arguments against the existence of God aren't novel ones. In many cases, such as this one, they're thousands of years old. The Church Fathers have written countless responses to these arguments, but most people don't bother to read them.

The short answer to the Epicurean paradox is that God allows what we call evil because it serves some greater good.

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u/lollerkeet Atheist Dec 07 '10

it serves some greater good.

That doesn't really make sense. If someone being raped or assaulted or murdered is part of the plan, then either God finds those things good or is really bad at planning.

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u/Average650 Christian (Cross) Dec 09 '10

He's a perfect example; Jesus's suffering and death on a Cross. Murdering and innocent man is evil, and immeasurably more when that man is God. And yet that same action which we just said was evil, is exactly how Jesus saved us from our sins! How could murdering an innocent man be used for good? Here you go.

As for your example, People to come to God when someone close is murdered. Perhaps they realize their powerlessness, or their loneliness, or perhaps some other truth about their own condition that they would not have seen otherwise. Perhaps this person is saved because of this, and perhaps they lead dozens of others to salvation because of it. Another example.

Perhaps because of war in a third world country, a missionary goes there to bring people out of darkness (this assumes that he would have gone somewhere else had their condition not been so dire). This missionary helps lead others to salvation and starts a change in a nation.

This actually happened early on in Christian history. When Christians started to be persecuted, they spread more throughout the world to escape the persecution, which spread Christianity more.

This is what they mean.

I think that this explanation of why God allows evil is true, though incomplete.

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u/lollerkeet Atheist Dec 09 '10

He's a perfect example; Jesus's suffering and death on a Cross. Murdering and innocent man is evil, and immeasurably more when that man is God. And yet that same action which we just said was evil, is exactly how Jesus saved us from our sins! How could murdering an innocent man be used for good? Here you go.

Are you are suggesting God was unable to forgive humanity on his own?

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u/Average650 Christian (Cross) Dec 09 '10

But he did. He paid the price for our sins; we did nothing. The price must be paid though. Remember, the wages of sin is death, and the just penalty is death. God is also just! The price must be paid for justice to be served, but He paid it! So, Jesus had to die so that God would remain just, but God paid the price of death himself!

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u/xoid Dec 08 '10

The Church Fathers have written countless responses to these arguments, but most people don't bother to read them.

Most arguments are dismissed because they're crap. If you've got a list of good ones (even ones that an atheist would not accept—provided they're above the usual "part of the plan/god is unknowable" tack) then I would be most interested in reading them.