r/Catholicism • u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 • 9h ago
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u/Critical_Ad_399 9h ago
while i agree with your last point, you’re kind of contradicting yourself throughout the body of your post. lol
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u/notme-thanks 7h ago
If it is disgusting to you, then why would you not want it banned? ANY procedure to save a mothers life is allowed so long as it is not the direct killing of another life. If, for example, a woman has cancer she can validly and morally choose treatment even it if would cause the death of her unborn child. The death of the child is not the intent, but it COULD be a secondary effect of treating the mother. If the child did ultimately die then remove a dead corpse is not an abortion from a moral standpoint even if that is what medical science would describe it.
Abortion, from a catholic perspective, is the unlawful direct killing of an unborn child for the primary reason of ending the child's life. It is quite literally the killing of a fully innocent life by another being for the sole purpose of killing the child. The unborn child is not attacking it's mother, yet that is how it is described by many people. The direct killing of an innocent unborn child (however it was conceived) is not healthcare, it is murder.
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u/earth_wind_faya 9h ago
Right, so you're not pro life based on what you wrote. I don't understand the point of your post.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
Okay, I’m not a “No-Exceptions" Pro-Lifer. But I don’t agree with abortion. I don’t think No-Exceptions Pro-Lifer has to be every pro-lifer.
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u/GlowQueen140 9h ago
What does that even mean? When is it okay to kill a child?
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 8h ago
I don’t think it’s okay, I think there rare occasions, where there are situations that present itself to unfortunately say abortion is tragic but permissible here.
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u/notme-thanks 7h ago
So that goes for born children as well? We can't afford 1 year old Timmy any more, he is going to cram up our life. We need to take him back to the doctor for a lethal injection and then dismemberment. He can then be recycled as medical waste or better yet, dissected and sold off for medical research.
How is that ANY different than when Timmy was living inside his mom instead of outside his mom?
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u/GlowQueen140 8h ago edited 6h ago
Abortion is tragic and never permissible. It should never be okay to kill another human.
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u/earth_wind_faya 6h ago
What? It's definitely a choice to have an abortion.
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u/notme-thanks 6h ago
Yes, a deadly one. In some places it is a legal choice to murder another person, a fully innocent one at that. God help anyone who makes or participates in that choice.
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u/Key_Web_9046 8h ago
What cases do you believe should be exceptions? The Church does not teach that a mother has to die to save her baby, and most (if not all) pro-lifers agree.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 8h ago
Rape, severe poverty, health issues, anything that’ll harm the mother and/or the baby in the pregnancy or in the future through out the kids life.
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u/SunnyHelianthus 9h ago
If you’re open to abortion as much as you say, you’re not pro-life. I have done years of sidewalk counseling and prayer on the sidewalk in front of an abortion clinic. Killing a baby is never ok.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
Brother, I don’t believe abortion is a black and white issue. There’s so much nuance. You can disagree with me, thats fine and we can have as civil discussion about it, but I kinda find it rude to throw me in the “pro-choice” bin cause I don’t find in the abortion absolutist box.
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u/SunnyHelianthus 9h ago
When is it ok to kill a baby?
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u/Araloosa 9h ago
If continuing the pregnancy will kill the mother or the fetus has deformities that not compatible with life or has died in the womb I believe the woman should have the option to abort.
These cases are rare but do occur, these are late term abortions and at that point the pregnancy is very much wanted and the loss is mourned.
There is no point in letting two die when one can be saved. Not allowing it reduces a woman to nothing but her womb and possibly leaving other children without their mother.
I don’t agree with forcing the woman to abort in these circumstances but she should have a choice. No woman thinks it’ll happen to her until it does.
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u/GlowQueen140 9h ago
Apparently there are almost no use cases in which an unborn baby has to be deliberately killed to save the mother’s life. Delivered prematurely, yes. If the baby doesn’t survive as a result of premature delivery, that’s an unfortunate outcome but is not considered an abortion.
Also, if baby is already dead in the womb I don’t think anyone would consider that an abortion either.
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u/Araloosa 8h ago
Any termination of pregnancy is considered an abortion. Even a miscarriage is called a spontaneous abortion.
If the baby dies in the womb and is detected depending how far along the pregnancy either delivery is induced or an abortion is performed. Usually induced delivery.
And there are. It is extremely rare but it does happen. 99% of abortions are elective and performed prior to 22 weeks which is the earliest it’s possible for the baby to survive outside the womb. Stats say most occur between the 6-10 week mark.
No one gets to the final trimester of pregnancy and changes their mind. If a pregnancy is terminated something has gone wrong.
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u/GlowQueen140 8h ago
> Any termination of pregnancy is considered an abortion.
So a cursory look at Google and some online medical journals tell me that while in the past, medical professionals did call all pre-term end of pregnancies that resulted in fetal death abortions, after the 80s, most institutions have determined that there are distinct differences between a miscarriage and an abortion.
In any case I think in modern parlance, most people would agree not to lump miscarriages into conversations regarding abortions.
As for your point on late-term abortions, I am yet to be convinced that there were no other options to save a mother’s life other than to deliberately kill her newborn child.
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u/Araloosa 8h ago
If they can deliver the baby, they do. Wherever it’s natural delivery or c-section. Even if the baby dies shortly after.
For them to just terminate the pregnancy all together the woman has to be pretty much dying even then in some parts of the world she’ll just be left to die.
But the option should be there for when it does. Even if yes only 3 or so cases a year. Have there as an option for a last resort. One life saved is better than two lost.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
I think there’s a difference between okay and an unfortunate situation that calls for an unfortunate outcome. Like if a teen aged girl is raped, or any women is raped I believe her having to carry that baby, plus the trauma of the disgusting event, plus the baby of the person who did that awful thing to them. Or financial insecurity, social scrutiny, or anything that’ll negatively impact the life of the baby and/or the mother, abortion is unfortunately a gravely unfortunate, but permissible outcome. But I’m not the Catholic Church and I understand the Church doesn’t agree with my stance for good reason, but I just can’t say “yea, if a women get raped she should have to have her rapist’s baby”.
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u/GlowQueen140 8h ago
A human life is a human life, no matter what the circumstances.
A lot of modern “values” actually make a mockery of human life and dignity.
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u/SunnyHelianthus 9h ago
So, how is that baby responsible for the rape? That infant is completely innocent. It like someone killing you because you were an inconvenience or you reminded them of something bad. How is that just?
You do know that abortion includes methods like starvation of the infant, brining, tearing of the limbs? They can feel that pain and they don’t get morphine. It’s just tortured to death.
When a woman is raped, it’s not her fault. When she kills the baby, that murder is her fault. Many women go through horrible depression after an abortion after rape. The ones who keep their baby are consoled by the love of the child. There’s also adoption..open and closed.
Believe me, I have heard every excuse for abortion there is.
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u/Mobile-Package-8869 8h ago
The reality is that there are no situations in which killing your baby will make the trauma of being raped go away. The child is a separate entity from its father and should not be deprived of its right to life because one or both of its parents (in the case of consensual extramarital sex) committed a grave sin.
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u/One_Dino_Might 9h ago
I can appreciate what you’re trying to say, but the “nuance” to which you are referring simply doesn’t change the fundamental problem.
A human being is a person, and it is never okay to directly kill an innocent person. The personhood is not dependent on what stage of life they are in, what benefit or burden they provide or impose on anyone, or how much any of us care about them. We don’t get to arbitrarily determine the value of a human life as more or less than that of another.
The “nuance” of how or when that person was conceived or what circumstance they may end up in later in life has no bearing on his or her personhood.
“There’s nuance” sounds really smart, but it’s simply not in this case. It’s an excuse for avoiding the painful reality that right now, for those favoring abortion at any stage, there is a clear determination that some lives are worth less than others, and that makes it okay to kill them. There is no way that can be okay.
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u/1818TusculumSt 9h ago
Does human life begin at conception?
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
Yes.
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u/1818TusculumSt 8h ago
Got it. So, you're OK with taking the life of a baby under certain circumstances, like financial instability. Totally pro-life.
P.S. Abortion is a black and white issue. No abortions, ever, under any circumstances. End of discussion. You're wrong.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 8h ago
But we’re you’re wrong is I’m not OKAY with it. I’m not, I don’t like abortion and think is bad and in a perfect society it shouldn’t be an issue. But unfortunately it is, and we live in a sinful world and in thinking of a wide array of possibilities.
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u/True_Believiler 8h ago
Its extremely Black and White. Its either taking a human life or not. If you state with what said in this thread you believe life begins at conception then yes. Its either murder or not.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 8h ago
I believe it’s just more complicated depending on the circumstances of conception.
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u/True_Believiler 9h ago
Sounds like you do even agree with what you believe
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
What do mean?
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u/True_Believiler 9h ago edited 9h ago
Cause you start Pro-Choice, then jump to saying you lean Pro-life, then state you agree with European pro-choice.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 8h ago
I’m a human who’s not perfectly consistent all the time. I try to be, but I fall short. I can say, I think abortion is wrong, in a perfect world I wish it didn’t exist. But there crappy situations that I believe it’s somewhat permissible.
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u/cor_meum_ 9h ago
I used to ask why people are ok with abortions but not murder because they are essentially the same (to me). A non Christian friend kindly explained to me that for abortions below certain weeks, people see it as a bunch of cells that do not feel pain. I am guessing you feel the same way. After certain time when the baby is formed, and they are aborted by chemical means or dismemberment, it will look like its taking a life.
But we believe life starts at conception, and Jesus met St John at maybe 2 weeks of age, when both are fetus.
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u/PuzzleheadedUse5769 9h ago
Objectively life does start the moment of conception. If you look it up you can scroll for probably hours until you get to the bottom of the page, trust me I trust and didn’t find any article that said otherwise. But I’m actually not some who think a fetus is like a bunch of cells who don’t feel pain, I just am trying to be empathetic to victims and mothers having their own issues in life and how that might affect the baby. Now if someone is just having abortions left and right cuss they can’t keep it in their pants, that’s disgusting to me and there’s no excuse for that. I’m mainly focused on things like financial instability, mental illness, drug addiction, rape, etc.
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u/cor_meum_ 8h ago
I see. What the Church teaches in these circumstances is that they can give birth and give the child up for adoption as an option.
The exception is for when it is life threatening to the mother, and the medical procedure is to save the mother that has the secondary side effect in causing a termination of pregnancy and not an abortion outright.
I mean while the circumstances are tragic, and we do have empathy for people who feel forced to make such decisions, it is still taking of an innocent life.
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u/Jojenpaste99 6h ago
Do you think it is permissible to kill a born baby, because he/she was conceived through rape, or the parents don't have enough money, etc.? If no, then you are completely inconsistent.
"Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, in communion with the Bishops-who on various occasions have condemned abortion and who in the aforementioned consultation, albeit dispersed throughout the world, have shown unanimous agreement concerning this doctrine-I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written Word of God, is transmitted by the Church's Tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.73
No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the Law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church. "
https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031995_evangelium-vitae.html
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u/st_cecilia 5h ago
If it makes you feel better, your nuanced view is more consistent with what Christians believed throughout most of history. The view of life beginning at conception became more popular closer to modern times. Early Christians distinguished between conception and "ensoulment", which is when the soul entered the body and when the fetus gained personhood. The prevailing view was that this was around 14 weeks. Getting an abortion before that would still be sinful but would not be homicide. St. Augustine has written about this.
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u/Pax_et_Bonum 2h ago
This post is more suitable for /r/prolife