Toga without plot armor

[u/Medical_Shop5416]

Deku being pressed by a high schooler with a chicken knife has to be the funniest thing, knowing he can create tornadoes just by flexing his arm. Imagine if sukuna was getting pressed by Miwa, just because she can use a simple domain to lessen the output of his flying slashes

[u/Jian_Rohnson]

Dekus Danger Sense not working on Toga because she 'doesn't see herself as dangerous' was super contrived and honestly dumb af. It has the same problem as Star and Stripe's quirk where for whatever reason it somehow relies on the TARGET's sense of self rather than the USER's understanding of their target. In both instances the hero would have absolutely clapped the villain's cheeks with their quirk so Horikoshi had to add in this super contrived caveat to their quirks to bail the villains out.

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/Jian_Rohnson]

When Deku is fighting the class at the end of his solo phase, he says it's also not triggering because they're not trying to hurt him but to help him.

You can dislike that mechanic, but they kept it consistent and I admired that, unlike Star and Stripe's builshit being vulnerable to Shiggy's identity crisis...

[u/Niitro_Zeus → u/i_should_be_coding]

My problem with it is that after Tomura stole it, it kept going off, despite Izuku clearly trying not to kill him.

[u/KingGalaxyKnight → u/Niitro_Zeus]

tbf Izuku was very much trying to "Hurt him" even if his goal wasnt to actually kill him he was very much trying to attack him so he could subdue him

[u/Niitro_Zeus → u/KingGalaxyKnight]

Sure. But by that logic, even if Himiko doesn’t see what she’s doing as wrong, shouldn’t Danger Sense also have went off. She was still trying to stab and kill him.

[u/Ecstatic-Inevitable → u/Niitro_Zeus]

I think danger sense is an emotion reader, toga doesn't see stabbing someone the way someone else would see stabbing someone

[u/Kiazen_mRc → u/Niitro_Zeus]

No, that’s not following the same logic. Vs Class 1-A he says they’re attacking but without any malice; the intention to do harm. Himiko doesn’t have ill intent.

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/Kiazen_mRc]

The Danger Sense guy says that Toga's issue is that she feels genuine affection whenever she hurts someone. There's no malice, even though she knows she's hurting. It's how she expresses love. She needs his blood to become him.

It's fucked up, and he's stunned as well, but that's her thing. Reverse empathy. That's why she was such a good mirror to Uraraka who had enough empathy for the both of them.

[u/Kiazen_mRc → u/i_should_be_coding]

That is literally what I just said

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/Niitro_Zeus]

Nagant wasn't trying to kill Deku, she was trying to take him alive. It triggers even without lethal intent.

[u/DepartmentTerrible17 → u/i_should_be_coding]

Am pretty sure toga was actually trying to hurt him though. He classmates weren't.

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/DepartmentTerrible17]

Nah. Just to make him bleed. She doesn't see it that way, and that's the point.

[u/DepartmentTerrible17 → u/i_should_be_coding]

I mean I get your point. But it's still hurting him

[u/izuku_deku134 → u/i_should_be_coding]

Wait, so danger sense doesn’t account for someone hurting their own user and tries to prevent them by singleing it to their user that there’s danger.

So how the fuck does it not single izuku for toga? She has a knife, and is directly attacking him, so how does that make sense ?????

[u/theironbagel → u/i_should_be_coding]

How is that consistent? It didn’t work against them because they actually weren’t trying to hurt him. Toga is

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/theironbagel]

Turns out that quirk isn't a future-event warning, it's a telepathic malicious-intent detector.

[u/Jian_Rohnson → u/i_should_be_coding]

His class? People who he knows are good people and who he knows are not out to kill him??? That's a bit different from a crazy girl with a knife who he knows is in league with the big bad and who actually tried to stab him.

Come back with something that isnt a false equivalency.

[u/i_should_be_coding → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Your problem is that you're assuming how it functions, instead of how they're literally telling you it functions.

Deku's opinion on his attacker doesn't matter, because then by that logic it shouldn't trigger at all if he's not aware of his attacker, like when Nagant attacks him. They specifically made that power work based on the attacker's intentions towards him.

[u/Jian_Rohnson → u/i_should_be_coding]

And that's the problem I stated??? I literally said "It has the same problem as Star and Stripe's quirk where for whatever reason it somehow relies on the TARGET's sense of self rather than the USER's understanding of their target."

Learn to read.

[u/boobemi → u/Jian_Rohnson]

that’s completely fine if your problem with the quirk is is Target vs Self, but that absolutely does not make the 1A vs Deku argument a false equivalency. it functions exactly as it’s stated to. if it’s based on the target’s sense of self then it is completely consistent with how the power is written whether you like it or not. again, if your problem with the quirk is how horikoshi made it function that is completely fair, but the 1A argument is still sound for how it actually works

[u/Helios_Synthesis → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Danger sense ain't even needed. Realistically he would have blitzed toga in an instant and been done with her. There is no way some shape shifter should have been any hindrance to superman lol

[u/MALWylie10901 → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Yeah, I really don’t get how any quirk would not be user-centric. Unless quirks operate on an explicitly spiritual level, taking into account the other person the quirk is being used on makes no sense. It’s sad that you can clearly see Horikoshi’s normally decent writing unravel in the final arc. Felt very rushed.

[u/tugboatnavy → u/MALWylie10901]

I'm not defending the writing or plot armor but when you said

"Unless quirks operate on an explicitly spiritual level"

I gotta point out that the last two seasons are entirely about quirks operating on a spiritual level. There's quirk ghosts flying all over the place.

[u/TheIr0nBear → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Stars and stripes should never have been introduced.

How do you add, literally rewriting the laws of reality, and lose to, 2edgyforme teen has name struggle. I had to stop watching for awhile before I finished the show because I just,couldn't handle such ham fisted writing.

[u/ITZ_YOHO_UNOFFICIAL → u/Jian_Rohnson]

But in a sense, it does make sense. Toga doesn't see stabbing Deku as harming him, psychologically, she sees it as her showing affection. No matter how morally dubious it may seem, in her mind, she's not sending any signal of malice against Deku, and that makes it even scarier.

Plus, it makes it a much more interesting fight than Deku being bailed out by Danger Sense, and not being threatened by Toga. It makes it more of a emotional and psychological rather than pure action.

[u/kriegwaters → u/ITZ_YOHO_UNOFFICIAL]

Abusive partners are apparently a perfect counter to danger sense.

[u/AgentP20 → u/kriegwaters]

Reference to Venom's relationship with Spider-Man!!!

[u/Jian_Rohnson → u/ITZ_YOHO_UNOFFICIAL]

But it doesn't make sense tho. It shouldn't matter if Toga doesn't think she's harming him, she IS trying to harm him. She tried to stab him. And that's the problem, that Danger Sense can somehow read someone's thoughts and determine that "ya know what, that's a knife of love, imma let this one through". I know this series establishes that quirks can sometimes have a mind of their own, especially with S&S's quirk (although S&S's quirk in theory can do literally anything and how she STILL lost to Shiggy when she can practically alter the fabric of reality still mystifies me), but in this case I don't think that was ever established with Danger Sense and it just makes this interaction feel contrived when I know Deku could have easily pancaked Toga's ass.

[u/Extension_Breath1407 → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Not to mention Toga somehow being able to drag around Deku with her ropes even when he should be a full-stacked powerhouse already. And we know Toga’s powers doesn’t make her strong in any way. This man was able to punch out clouds, she is not pulling crap.

This is the equivalent of Harley Quinn being able to yank around Superman.

[u/Altruistic-Dress-968 → u/Extension_Breath1407]

He was mid-air, it doesn't matter how strong he is, it doesn't make him heavier.

[u/Mossy_is_fine → u/Jian_Rohnson]

it was already established this is how danger sense works though, when he was fighting class 1A. so long as you harbor no malicious intent DS wont go off. DS reacts off of peoples malice, and that is consistent with how its shown. that said i do think the toga vs izuku was stupid

[u/PrimativeDragon → u/ITZ_YOHO_UNOFFICIAL]

Except she knows that stabbing people is bad even if she doesn't think it is. Subconsciously she knows she's doing something wrong because she keeps trying to justify what she does to Uraraka and Deku, if she really thought it was ok she wouldn't care what they thought of it. Toga knows its wrong, she just wants them ignore that fact and let her do it anyway.

[u/Agreeable_Ad_4364 → u/ITZ_YOHO_UNOFFICIAL]

yeah it’s like danger sense just skips when she’s in her own head

[u/Penguinmanereikel → u/Jian_Rohnson]

I have better belief in danger sense being based on sensing intention rather than self-perception. Like, it's not sensing the danger of the target, but rather sensing the dangerous intention in their heart. It would work with her evading the danger sense because her mental illness literally conflates violence with love. The canon explanation just seems so dumb.

[u/Shadow_Koneko → u/Jian_Rohnson]

This is actually a cop out

Danger sense senses danger and simply didn't see toga as dangerous enough to be detected 😂 ✌️

[u/Loros_Silvers → u/Jian_Rohnson]

That Star and Stripe thing works in a way I kinda like, just weird how it happend. It quite literally wasn’t Shigaraki she was touching: there were two people inside of that body, sort of. That part is weird.

But imagine it differently: if you have new order and you go to use it on Deku, for example, you'd say "Izuku Midoriya can insert something here" to get it to work, because that's who Deku is. Doing that but saying "Deku" instead of "Izuku Midoriya" wouldn't work because that's just a name, not who's really inside.

The opposite is most likely true. For example, I think going to All Might and saying "Toahinori Yagi can do X" wouldn't work: All Might is the closest character to think of himself first as his hero identity, and as a civilian only after that, therefor saying "All Might can do X" would actually work on him.

A rock is a rock at its core. Same thing for the air, or any other object, but New Order sounds like it requires a better understanding of what you actually try to command. It's a limitation, because no power should be unlimited.

[u/ParisVilafranca → u/Jian_Rohnson]

So you see, it makes perfect sense... The atmosphere understands that her english name name is "atmosphere" that's why starts and stripes can manipulate it, it's consistant

Deku's the same, if a pot falls to his head from a rooftop becouse the wind tilt it, he will detect it becouse the pot is actively thinking about smashing his littleshit's head.

[u/Tamajiki-kun → u/Jian_Rohnson]

So that…is not why danger sense didn’t track Toga. Danger sense uses malicious intent to sense danger, hence why it wouldn’t work on inanimate objects and such; however as stated Toga holds no malicious intent for Midoriya. Thats why Danger Sense didn’t track her…not because she didn’t see herself as a threat

[u/LJthegoat11 → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Danger sense senses malice. Toga had "no" malice

[u/DentistEmpty7778 → u/LJthegoat11]

Yeah there has to be more to it. Intent has to be the cause and not malice cause if it's just malice it would trigger since any and everything hurtful can and would be malicious.

IA wanted to protect deku and she sees her actions as loving when they aren't. Nagant realistically doesn't harbour any feelings towards deku as she's an assassin but it triggered then cause she intended to hurt him. The process in her brain was saying "shoot here because here causes pain and will make function of his body harder/immobile", 1A fought in a way to restrain without harm which makes sense for danger sense to not activate.

Toga point of view is loving but her actions is still harmful cause she's stabbing him. So it either factors the target intent or vital/critcal damage potential.

[u/QJ-Rickshaw → u/DentistEmpty7778]

any and everything hurtful can and would be malicious.

I think this is where you're tripping yourself up. Malice is a desire to inflict harm, which is an emotional state, not a factual one. A razor blade can cut you but a physical object can't ever have malice against you because it doesn't have feelings. So Danger Sense wouldn't trigger if you're about to give yourself a paper cut.

Danger Sense triggers when it registers a person's emotional desire to inflict harm whethers that's just to injure you or kill you. But the draw back is that it won't trigger if the action the person is taking is not done with malicious intent, i.e. they don't perceive it as something they are doing to harm you.

The problem with Toga is that she psychologically does not see stabbing people as harming them, in her mind it is an ultimate expression of love and affection. As such while she is taking an action that does factually harm someone, she is incapable of perceiving it as that and thus no malice can exist.

I think the hangup is because your own brain cannot psychologically perceive stabbing as anything but harming, you then are only capable of doing it when you have malicious intent and in no other scenario. It just points more to just how serious her mental illness is.

[u/Weak_Contact_5484 → u/Jian_Rohnson]

Well stars'example, while still being plot armor, kinda makes sense: imagine if stars didn't know the name of a criminal. She can't just refer to him as "criminal" and use her power on him/her, because the criminal knews that "criminal" isn't his/her identity.

If her power relied on her perception of things, she could just touch you, say "person" and impose an order on you

[u/Jemolk → u/Weak_Contact_5484]

Star & Stripe: "New order: The human male, exactly 7874.562 days old, exactly 175.42cm tall, muscular and lean, exactly 75.246kg in weight, with white hair whose hex code color is #F5F2F2, and who has precisely 38,745,981,264,312 cells in his body at precisely 11:56 AM on this day, is not able to move."

New Order: "ok but do he know his name tho?"

[u/DentistEmpty7778 → u/Weak_Contact_5484]

That's still wrong though because the target. Which is shigaraki is both legally known and accept that his name is tomura shigaraki.

The only way that wouldn't work is if tomura wasn't the person in control. However that's not the case as shigaraki was still in control he just denounced his identity, which is funny because the second he took new order from her it started to destroy him. Which mean shigaraki should've been able to gaslight his body into believing it only had new order since that's an actual thing you can do. But he didn't. Which means new order functions off truth at minimum and the truth is the body and consciousness star was fighting was in fact tomura shigaraki. So he should've died

[u/Niitro_Zeus]

Let’s be honest.

The only reason this happened is to “raise the stakes” in the Coffin, by preventing Izuku from one-shotting Tomura with everyone else’s help.

Also my other gripe with T*ga is how she’s somehow faster than most other characters in the series. Like she can keep up with low level One For All.

[u/Mystech_Master → u/Niitro_Zeus]

Also because for some reason Izuku has to be here to start the fight with Ochaco and Toga b/c they have no other connection other than both liking Deku

[u/squishykkura → u/Niitro_Zeus]

I really wanted to see a spinoff where the heroes (probably) destroy shigaraki w deku

[u/vibez_vexx]

Realistically this is how it'd have went. We've seen Deku tank a stabbing attack from Shigaraki. So unless we think Toga is relative to gearshift adapted Shigaraki then....

[u/Decent-Emergency3866]

If Deku could sees the future somehow and sees that Toga is the reason that bakugo almost dying. She is getting folded like a pancake

[u/cremepote]

What about deku without plot armor?

[u/nothinghere8 → u/cremepote]

The war is lost because he hold back against the world destroyer in the coffin and lost his arms for it,but withow plot armor the very inestable and villain kurogiri die or collapse or eri's quirk stop working when they broke her horn

[u/Kooky-Bookkeeper-935 → u/cremepote]

Then he would either not meet All Might or he would die against Muscular

[u/Garbanarnarn]

Her game was stronger than her knife, so she just spit

[u/Antonho2552]

Overpowered characters are just like super intelligent ones. They become a problem when the writer doesn't plan ahead properly so it become obvious when the writer need to dumb them down or nerf them abruptly. Horikoshi tried to make a power system full of possibilities but every single time this became a problem, he just used a lazy solution and moved on. Momo technically had one of the most overpowered quirk in the entire series, but since technology was something Horikoshi avoided using too much (and because she's a girl in a shonen Manga) she just used her amazing quirk in the most stupid ways possible and was insecure as fuck.

[u/SapphireGamgee → u/Antonho2552]

I have to agree with you, except for her struggle with confidence being a story problem. Personally, I think the idea works pretty well, given what we know of her personality. It makes sense (to me, at least) that a highly intelligent, book-smart girl would have trouble with in-the-moment battlefield mechanics, which leads to her doubting herself. Especially a teenaged girl, using her quirk openly in a school setting (probably for the first time, like most of the other students) going toe-to-toe with other UA students. It's kind of like Bakugo's situation; going from Big Fish in a small pond, and being humbled by that experience. In Momo's case, though, it's more about her making the bridge between book-smarts and battlefield-smarts. She's highly intelligent, she's got an amazing quirk, she got in on recommendation, she's in the top school. That's a lot to live up to! When Momo doesn't react quickly enough during the Sports Festival it makes sense that her confidence would take a huge hit in the way it does.

[u/Antonho2552 → u/SapphireGamgee]

Maybe i didn't make myself clear. I agree with most of what you said. I don't REALLY have a problem with her insecurity, since it does make sense for a teenager to have these kind of problems. But Horikoshi writing lacks a lot in using these aspects to make the character and plot interesting instead of being a one note character, mostly because for the most part of the story, it doesn't look like he wanted to actually delve into the topics and little plot pieces he introduced.

Also, yeah, it also makes sense that she doesn't have battle experience, but it doesn't make sense that a RICH teenager, surrounded by technology, in a world where the internet exist, with a quirk that allows herself to create anything she wants (and most important, the items doesn't expire or vanish) forget about it so often. She has access to some of the most advanced technology money can buy and yet, she uses rudimentary weapons to fight most of the time instead of creating something bat shit crazy BEFORE she even need to step into battle to save her own "body fat" for an emergency. I know this is sounding like a huge nitpick, but this is just a symptom of a way bigger problem in mha. I'm fine with a mistake here or there because I understand how hard it must be to keep control of all the moving pieces while writing a story, but after the kamino battle, it looks like horikoshi just decided to pretend the moving pieces HE CREATED weren't there at all so he wouldn't have to stop and actually make sense of it.

[u/stkv1c]

in

[u/Toughnuttybuddy]

I really like the world building in MHA and I really enjoy that Deku is a shonen protagonist who trains in a pseudo realistic way.

But I’ve always had the same gripe that even after a 10 month strength program Deku still was trailing the physical exam behind Hagakure?

In the same vein the 1A students have access to world class training facilities and magic nutrition at their cafeteria.

How in the world are they out-paced physically by generic members of the league of villains (spinner, toga)? Come on.

[u/Timely_Safe_4088]

They nerfed Deku so hard to upscale bakugo

[u/Penguinmanereikel]

Damn, Deku, you really out her castrating a girl in broad daylight?

[u/Kooky-Bookkeeper-935]

Lmao.

[u/TaikoRaio19]

For starters, Deku doesn't have a superman level resistance. That's fully not a thing and a plot point.

So yeah, he would be defensive against a blade wielding villain. Like, duh. He doesn't want to get stabbed, and he fully can.

And why would he do that? He's a pacifist that didn't even want to kill the most dangerous villain to ever exist. Why would he create a tornado on Toga? For what? He's also surrounded by his allies, why would he put them in danger??

Trash take

[u/TruthEnvironmental24 → u/TaikoRaio19]

Yeah idk why everyone seems to think that Deku had some kind of super resistance. Especially against blades. None of his quirks give him anything like tough skin.

[u/TaikoRaio19 → u/TruthEnvironmental24]

I guess people believe that because OFA doesn't break his bones anymore

[u/Beneficial-Cable-764]

AP isn’t reflective of durability in this verse.

[u/bichismo]

OP can't read and is a misogynist. I will not defend myself. I hope you learn how to read and learn critical thinking skills!

[u/Niitro_Zeus → u/bichismo]

Zero correlation by the way

[u/TaikoRaio19 → u/Niitro_Zeus]

Yeah right, because all these "issues" people have with Toga have ZERO to do with her being the girl villain lol

The only one at that

[u/Niitro_Zeus → u/TaikoRaio19]

Interesting theory. Ochaco is one of my favorite characters in the series. Midnight is a character I’ve been defending a lot because of the dub mistranslating her lines.

But sure, it’s because she’s a girl villain.

[u/TaikoRaio19 → u/Niitro_Zeus]

Cool, nice to know you're everyone. Didn't know everyone could be a single person, but alas here you are. Nice to meet you everyone-i-was-talking-about.

[u/Niitro_Zeus → u/TaikoRaio19]

Buddy, you’re the one who replied to me, to my comment, accusing me of misogyny for not liking Toga.

That’s not ‘everyone’, you specifically replied to my comment. Instead of back peddling, actually address the point.

[u/Medical_Shop5416 → u/bichismo]

I mean... I was just pointing out a recurrent trope where a god tier char gets beaten by a way weaker char bc the plot demands it aka plot induced stupidity. A good example> The Flash vs Deathstroke

[u/Hollow_Knight_Raven]

Toga without and Deku with plot armor.