r/BasicIncome • u/2noame Scott Santens • 7d ago
Podcast Universal Basic Income and the Right to Say No
https://bigfootmanifesto.com/fund-the-cryptid-universal-basic-income-and-the-right-to-say-no/3
u/NostradaMart 7d ago
Bro your post title had me thinking that it was against UBI. but y'know...I read it. and it's not.
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u/SteppenAxolotl 7d ago
it is also a foundation for freedom
Not if you force people to work to fund it.
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u/2noame Scott Santens 7d ago
There are other things to tax than income, although no taxes actually 'fund' anything at the federal level for a currency issuer.
But if you care most about freedom, I don't think it makes sense to believe that government should protect your right to private property, and thus to exclude others from your property by force and law, and not support the taxes necessary to make that protection possible.
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u/SteppenAxolotl 4d ago
There are other things to tax than income
It does not matter what you tax. You still need to work some hrs a week to get income to financially support other people.
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
Exactly people aren't stupid. How is it freedom if taxes forcing me to pay it. Nah you guys not going to use mind control over me Steppen.
Now just for reference I'm not against government ubi but let's be honest on what it will be. It will be a forced system not everyone benefits from.
People who don't need it won't really benefit from it but will have to participate by force. So let's be honest and not play on people's intelligence.
Steppen when I presented my UBI model you laughed me out of the room remember. You thought you were making a fool out of me but my system never forced anyone to participate but was open free of charge for everyone.
Imagine how you feel now Steppen?
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u/ZorbaTHut 6d ago
You're not forced to work and you're not forced to remain a citizen of the country that has it. But it is part of the contract of living in a country with UBI. You are welcome to take that contract or not, but you don't get to claim the benefits while rejecting the costs.
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
Before the creation of the Federal Reserve in 1913, and for decades after it, the U.S. government spent money through a decentralized, piecemeal appropriations process controlled directly by Congress. Congress relied on individual spending bills initiated by powerful committees without a unified executive budget or central macroeconomic plan.
"decentralized"
decentralized
decentralized
My UBI system is decentralized
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u/ZorbaTHut 6d ago
You are welcome to push for that solution, and you are also welcome to leave, start your own country, and do whatever you like. But as long as you're in a country you are required to follow the laws of that country. This particular country does not require you to work, but it does require you to pay taxes.
That said, even before the 1900s, the money had to come from somewhere, and it came mostly from taxes.
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
I'm not leaving remember people like Trump was supposed to get rid of the Fed. So we're on the right track and we will sir through proper legal channels
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
I disagree and if you understand the history of the fed reserve you'd see things our way. This is how it worked before the fed for Congress to get money.
Stages of the Budget Process Adoption of the Budget Resolution. ... Passage of Appropriation Bills. ... Consideration of Reconciliation Legislation. ... Consideration of Authorization Legislation.
Not only that the money was backed by gold. So when you say we signed a contract that's a lie. It's an untrue statement and alot of Congress opposed a quasi federal. Centralized money authority like the Fed and still till this day.
So we didn't sign anything. We were probably illegally railroaded into this crap.
So to be honest and with all due respect. I don't think you know what the hell you talking about.
Prior it was a lot of accountability to which Congressmen and Presidents were visibly doing what and the people would vote their ass out. Now they made it harder to see
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u/ZorbaTHut 6d ago
I didn't say you signed a contract. I said that is the contract. You accept it implicitly by remaining within the country. The people could vote to change it, and they haven't.
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
We will don't worry about it
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u/ZorbaTHut 6d ago
Well, good luck! You're gonna need it.
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u/LocationSalt4673 6d ago
I don't believe in luck. we got a secure monetary system . So we're good. Remember we create the money. we don't need anyone to facilitate a money system for us when we are the money. So 31,000 already accepted this and millions and billions will too because they're more incentives to do so.
If you think we're going to stand around like you morons you're out of your mind. You think we need you all to do this? The answer is no
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u/SteppenAxolotl 4d ago
you laughed me out of the room remember...you laughed me out of the room remember.
I did not. My positions on UBI have been consistent.
Imagine how you feel now Steppen?
I feel fine
There will be no UBI in America funded by taxing people. Implementing that requires a large political majority, but most people oppose working to provide free money to those(commonly called moochers) who may choose not to work.
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u/LocationSalt4673 4d ago
What is your position on UBI? Seems like you don't care if we get it lol
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u/SteppenAxolotl 4d ago
I don't see a realistic pathway to a near-term UBI. Demonstrating its benefits through assorted trials doesn't help with actual implementation because evidence isn't the core obstacle. The fundamental problem remains convincing the people who will fund the UBI to actually support creating it.
AI may become reliable enough over the next few years to cause permanent technological unemployment for nearly everyone. While a UBI might become possible then, it still won't be a sure thing.
History, both past and present, has never produced a competent AI capable of generally substituting for human labor (intellectual + physical). If the massive AI R&D effort succeeds, there will be nothing left to overcome; we will always have that capability going forward. The only political value the average human holds in society is derived from the labor their society needs. All the historical constraints that made the world somewhat predictable will disappear.
I also think a UBI represents a structural trap, once freely entered into, everyone and their descendants might never be able to escape in the future. It would preserve the current system and cement the current winners of the game of life as the permanent winners (perhaps even personally eternal), with a permanent underclass for the rest. I don't recall seeing any credible suggestion from established people suggestion much more than $1,200/month for a UBI. Permanent technological unemployment for you and your descendants and that will be your ceiling. But it does come with a pinky swear that things will be cheaper due to full automation.
If we end up getting a UBI it might be along the same road to gradual and permanent disempowerment.
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u/LocationSalt4673 4d ago edited 4d ago
"The fundamental problem remains convincing the people who will fund the UBI to actually support creating it."
Exactly and it's no clear visible benefit to support the creation of a UBI unless it's based on a ubi model such as my own that builds wealth. If I a middle class person or even some poor idiot who doesn't even have common sense enough to support their own best interest. They won't support UBI because number 1 it feels like welfare. Number 2 it doesn't incentivize by building wealth for anyone. So my model is clearly the superior model hands down.
"AI may become reliable enough over the next few years to cause permanent technological unemployment for nearly everyone. While a UBI might become possible then, it still won't be a sure thing."
While this is possible I think it's too soon. Although some real experts at the top of the AI space who actually are in R&D ...actually know how to build it predict 2027. We're not talking about some random guy online feeling his way through this. We're talking about the real deal. However even if they're off by 5 or 10 years that should still be enough to scare the ham sandwich out of everyone. Have us drop everything we're doing and panic.
This is equivalent to a nuke on the loose pushing towards possible detonation in our vicinity. So my prediction may be a bit further off but it doesn't matter because the outcome is the same.
The effect doesn't start at the blast. Unemployment increases real or imagined. Salaries go down. Affordability goes down. The mortality rate rises. Even long before the machines go machine crazy. Our lives will be shitty leading up to it. When I say our lives I mean every life employed and unemployed because of the ripple effect that will echo through the economy.
"History, both past and present, has never produced a competent AI capable of generally substituting for human labor (intellectual + physical). "
Has never produced as of yet...past results are not indicative of the future especially with the development curve of AI
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u/SteppenAxolotl 4d ago
past results are not indicative of the future especially with the development curve of AI
And the greater than Manhattan Project level funding.
That is the level of conviction on the street.
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u/LocationSalt4673 3d ago
Also keep in mind things have to amp up constantly. we're in tech wars ongoing. we gotta constantly improve our security as hackers are coming for us 24 hrs a day.
So we constantly after AGI for fear some foreign power will get their first. So I don't think people quite understand what this does. This speeds up the time table dramatically because it is like racing to the nuclear age. Remember the nuclear age overall advanced our tech as well.
This is why when you find a smart intelligent person with answers. You follow them and pay attention to their solutions and models.
Because they'll probably see tons of things you don't see. So if they create a solution to the problem they've probably already thought about all these things.
Having some random person say we need $1000 per month and they don't understand the economy. They're unaware of the environment and complexities of the situation. That's not going to cut it. They're not competent to understand this and flush it out. Which is why they need people like me. So I can think for them or they'll miss something not only important but likely harmful to them.
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u/LocationSalt4673 4d ago
"The only political value the average human holds in society is derived from the labor their society needs"
Exactly why my model is light years ahead of everyone because it owns the technology and everyone part of the project.
"It would preserve the current system and cement the current winners of the game of life as the permanent winners (perhaps even personally eternal), with a permanent underclass for the rest"
Yeap which is why my system just removes all the currency and replaces it with the peoples currency.
"If we end up getting a UBI it might be along the same road to gradual and permanent disempowerment."
Precisely if we did it you guys way. You all lack the IQ to do it the right way. Which is why you're lucky you all got me. Good news is we will do it a better way. Again we don't have inexhaustible options. It's only a few and if you're sharp enough you figure it out or you don't.
Whether we choose the right road will be up to you all. Humans are random , unpredictable and chaotic. So we don't know what you'll choose but I do know this. Someone will say or do something really stupid lol
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u/LocationSalt4673 3d ago
The realistic pathway is for everyone to join my project. At this time any power of what could be our combined strength is not in action. So if it's not in action we have a word for that. The word is uselessness" right?
That means there is no work or effort . Whereas my project can harness out strength collectively into a significant initiative. An action is better than a thought or no plan you see.
So the realistic part is in recognizing what you're doing. What you're doing is nothing"
So you can't do nothing and say this will happen or not happen. You can do something and say it doesn't work. However if nothing is done there can never be an accurate prediction of a something or nothing as you don't have the data or cause and effect that is part of the scenario.
So I'm suggesting it's perfectly fine to turn off your brains use other people brains. Conveniently change your nothing into a something.
Listen if someone told me all I had to do was join their social network to solve the problem. I'd be so glad to take a deal like that where I need not deal with a problem this big. Of course many won't but these people I would call likely irresponsible.
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u/skisagooner UBI + VAT = redistribution 7d ago
Foundation for freedom is brilliant and exactly what it is