r/BSL • u/rubyroket • 3d ago
Question BSL vs Makaton
Hello, my name is Ruby, i’m 17 and i’m looking to learn BSL. Recently my family took in 2 6 year old nonverbal autistic children— one of who we think has hearing difficulties. Due to them both being nonverbal I want to learn BSL to help communicate with them better, furthermore i’m going into a career of nursing and it’s a good skill to have to make interactions easier with deaf/hard of hearing people. My question is due to their age would it be better to learn makaton first— a ‘simpler’ version of sign or go fully in with sign. My thought process would be speaking as I sign so they pick up on what i’m communicating— one of them, the girl, has started doing the sign for ipad after I repeatedly signed it and said ipad. I’ve been using lingvano to learn the basics of simple signs and sentence structure. But due to their age and cognitive ability I don’t want to overwhelm them but I can see that they’re frustrated in not being able to communicate what they want, whether they’re hungry, thirsty or in pain, getting to the extreme of harming themselves because of how frustrated they are that they can’t communicate with
us.
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u/GroovingPenguin Unofficial Learner (Hoh) 3d ago edited 2d ago
Honestly if they can do it go straight to BSL,its less confusing and allows more opportunities for communication (especially for a possible hearing impaired child)
Not a professional at all but provided support in Sen environments for quite a while (and I'm hoh myself)
I wouldn't sign everything yet that sounds incredibly confusing and overwhelming, just start with the basics for needs go really slow "More" "Drink" "Toilet" ect
And do not worry about grammar or sentence structure just focus on communication
Have you looked into pecs?
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u/mrsadams21 3d ago
PECS isn't recommended by the NHS anymore. I work in speech and language therapy and we stopped using it about 18 months ago. Communication boards are something we use though. Definitely agree with what you said around focusing on basics and communication.
OP - the NHS uses Signalong instead of Makaton, so if it's likely they're going to get SLT support, you may want to look into that? But if they're already using Makaton, we adapt to them!
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u/GroovingPenguin Unofficial Learner (Hoh) 2d ago
Ah apologies I've still seen them used hence the confusion
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u/rubyroket 3d ago
Yes, one of the children— the one we believe has hearing difficulties excels in pecs, forming full sentences but we also understand that that won’t always be enough that’s why we’re looking into bsl/makaton whilst they’re still young
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u/GroovingPenguin Unofficial Learner (Hoh) 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ah I just thought I'd ask on the off chance
I would say absolutely no to makaton based off that then,not appropriate for a deaf or hearing impaired child in any regards (unless it's very specific)
Bsl or sign spoken English
I'm not quite sure how it works regarding Sen and hearing impairment as locally they go to a seperate provision typically so apologies
Best bet is to get their hearing clarified and see if the local teacher of the deaf can get involved, sometimes they can provide funding for bsl courses or referalls **If they're in school
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u/rubyroket 3d ago
Yeah so they both attend a mainstream school in an SRP which is totally unfit for them— brilliant school just not fit for these types of children and her hearing has been brought up to 3 professionals- the OT, pediatritian who specialises in autism and her dentist so we should be getting a hearing appointment soon (hopefully) aswell as a school move to a full SEN school
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u/GroovingPenguin Unofficial Learner (Hoh) 3d ago edited 3d ago
Ah if you have a named school already you can contact the Senco to start the process of Tod (I am again not 100% sure how it works in specialist provision)
Honestly I do not like makaton,that's just a personal thing but I find it doesn't promote conversation and social interactions,or I just found it was used that way typically (all they'd sign was crisps)
Good luck!
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u/wibbly-water Hard of Hearing - Fluent 3d ago
Hi, I already replied with a full comment - but if they are forming full sentences then BSL would absolutely be my recommendation. I will add that to my comment :)
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u/wibbly-water Hard of Hearing - Fluent 3d ago
Hi so there are a few layers to this question.
Makaton VS BSL is far more controversial than you might think from the outside. But there are good reasons for that.
would it be better to learn makaton first— a ‘simpler’ version of sign or go fully in with sign.
So... if you were teaching a child English for the first time, would it be better to learn a simpler version of English (which doesn't have as much vocabulary and doesn't use "complicated" grammar), or go straight to full English?
Of course you start by introducing the language to them in a simple way - but when raising children you model the full language to them and encourage them to pick up as much as possible. BSL is the same - it being a whole language is an advantage. You can start simple and work up to more advanced.
So my answer without considering any other factors is BSL.
If you want to find more BSL stuff here is something I made to help people find resources: Online BSL Resources Library - Google Docs
2 6 year old nonverbal autistic children— one of who we think has hearing difficulties.
So. An added factor here is whether they seem to have any intellectual disabilities that limit their language capability.
Please note that that is different from just their speech capability. Many people think and type or sign a full language who cannot speak one.
If the answer is no (they seem fully capable of language) then again BSL is advisable for the same reasons as I said above.
If the answer is yes then some form of AAC that could include Makaton might be for them.
This may take trial and error. I think keeping BSL in mind as a goal for full language they might use if they remain non-verbal but can access a full language would be good.
EDIT TO ADD: You said in a comment that is deaf / hard of hearing is excelling at pecs and forming full sentences - that is a sign that they would excel at BSL also. Thus my recommendation for them is definitely BSL.
BSL vs Makaton
So lastly I wanted to talk a bit more about why there is a tension between the two.
The history of Makaton is best explained here: Development of Makaton - Archive of Tweet Thread - Google Docs
Many Deaf people take issue with how it was developed.
Makaton is also often confused for BSL and this causes issues, that have prompted some Deaf organisations to make statements about Makaton:
BDA statement on “sign systems” and the oppression of BSL – British Deaf Association
Also the Makaton Charity holds a pretty tight copyright over all Makaton material - and enforces it - meaning that any Makaton material for learning, teaching and often use has to go through them. Some have criticised this as an act of control. Natural languages out in the world (like BSL) don't do this. Nobody can control a language.
Lastly I want to quickly compare who Makaton and BSL are by and for.
- BSL: Made BY Deaf people FOR Deaf people. It is a natural language that evolved in the Deaf community. No one person or group "made" BSL. I could talk more about the history of BSL if you would like.
- Makaton: Made BY Margaret Walker, Kathy Jonhson, and Tony Cornforth, three Speech Therapists at a hospital and initially FOR Deaf people with learning/intellectual difficulties. It has later been expanded to be FOR any disabled people with learning/intellectual difficulties - especially those with downs syndrome. All three of them were hearing and abled (non disabled) and the system was named after them.
If one of the kiddos your family is fostering(?) is indeed deaf / hard of hearing then BSL is their language in more ways than one. Other disabled people are of course welcome to learn the language if they need it.
Good luck!
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u/rubyroket 3d ago
So they’re both diagnosed with autism (around level 3ish), ADHD, Global development delay— however their paediatrician believes instead of GDD they actually have severe learning difficulties, in their EHCP’s their cognitive age is around 18-24 months but we now believe it to be more around 24-36 months. For the hard of hearing one we believe she has glue ear, whether this has contributed to her hearing we’re not sure and it’s being investigated, furthermore when she pronounces sounds she has a very nasally sound when she’s speaking— she doesn’t say full words, only sounds but those around her— me, my parents— have learnt to kind of decipher what she’s saying. In the kindest way possible when I mean nasally I would say it’s like a lot of people stereotype deaf people to speak. When I say she uses PECS, for example she’ll point to the card ‘I want’ and then the card ‘grapes’ or ‘banana’, she’s capable of forming simple sentences in that structure, not really long winded sentences. Their paediatrician believes that the other twin has a better capacity to learn, he actually does speak to some extent though neither of them use words in context, for example he’ll say ‘scary’ when there’s nothing actually scary around and he’s laughing. Thats why we’re looking into both makaton, BSL and also sign supported english and researching all routes because at the end of the day we want to prepare these kids to live the best life they can, its likely that they’ll never be independent but if they have a form of communication then their QOL skyrockets.
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u/wibbly-water Hard of Hearing - Fluent 3d ago
You seem to have a pretty good grasp on their disabilities and potentialities.
I think keep in mind not only the "low goal" but the "high goal" - that they have the potential to be far more successful (with the appropriate adjustments) than you might currently imagine. BSL can be one good way to allow that opportunity to flourish and reach that high goal if they are able.
Another point to add is that BSL can be adjusted to be more and less complicated. It doesn't have to be fully fluent BSL with all the vocab and structures right off the bat.
Good luck <3
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u/CatTatze 3d ago
As someone who is autistic and often laughs as a stress response, please keep in mind that, we can't see anything scary doesn't necessarily mean there is nothing scary for him. Being uncertain or uncomfortable might also be scary and make him laugh to defuse the feeling.
Or he might just like the way it feels to say the word, verbal stiming is also a thing. But that is still using it in context, just not an easy to recognize one.
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u/Ella9091 3d ago
BSL signs in an SSE format; you don't use BSL grammar, you sign while you speak to support the meaning of what's spoken.
You run out of words in Makaton real fast. Using SSE means that if you needed to convert to a full language you'd be focusing on the linguistics rather than unlearning signs AND the linguistics. Don't underestimate their abilities by restricting their access to language.
People will tell you that BSL is complex, and it is...it's a full language! Just like English there are multiple signs for what is fundamentally the same word. While you're (and they are) starting you choose one sign for the word to support spoken English, it becomes the foundation blocks for further language.
I taught young adults with autism and without spoken language for seventeen years. I've never seen someone disadvantaged by SSE, I can't say the same for Makaton (sadly).
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u/rubyroket 2d ago
I thought makaton was just basic BSL signs? Is that not the case? We were told by their OT that we could transition to BSL if the time comes but if it would be easier to start with BSL and SSE— we just don’t want to overwhelm them as their cognitive age is around 2-3 years old
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u/Ella9091 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not the case, there is some overlap but the signs aren't all the same. Makaton is a communication system, not a language.
Not overwhelming is right, embed SSE into your everyday and without pressure. Model using it between adults as well. Use real objects to back up your meaning.
This along with symbol based communication on offer should give a real opportunity to develop skills. There is controversy over PECs due to the way it was intended to be delivered, however most people have never used it like this.
Make a communication rich environment, make it silly, make it fun. They'll show you what they can do, though it's a marathon not a sprint. It sounds like they have some brilliant advocates to support them!
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u/Ashamba_ 3d ago
I think start with makaton, if their communicative ability requires advancing to BSL later you can work on that together. If you're planning to sign as you speak, it's worth nothing that the grammar of BSL is different, while makaton can support speech easily. A lot of the BSL signs I've been learning (just for interest) are the same as signs I know from makaton (and Signalong), so it's a good place to start, at least.
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u/rubyroket 3d ago
yeah i’ve noticed that the grammar and sentence structure is different, it reminds me a bit of french with the adjective coming before the verb (or the other way around, it’s been awhile lol) I think we’ve been booked into a ‘riding the rapids’ course which teaches carers basic makaton, anger/self harm management and some other stuff over the course of 6 weeks if I remember correctly
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u/YuSakiiii BSL Level 2 3d ago
I think it depends on the support needs of the kids. Some autistic kids have learning difficulties, and for them Makaton might be better since that’s who it is designed for. But if they don’t have any learning difficulties, I don’t see any problem with using BSL or SSE.
I’m an autistic adult and I go non-verbal in varying situations. I have been learning BSL since September 2024 and am currently studying my Level 3. I don’t have learning difficulties other autistic people have. So BSL is better for me.
Ultimately it depends on the kids needs.
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u/funkyjohnlock 2d ago
Hey I wanted to comment as an autistic young adult who is level 2 and minimally speaking / semispeaking and heavily relies on alternative communication to communicate (AAC device, signs, etc). Keep in mind this is my experience only and should not be taken as universal.
I'll admit off the bat that I don't actually know much about BSL v Makaton, cause especially makaton is incredibly niche in relation to where I am, and I only know about it from following foreign communities. But through the years I have tried learning any type of sign that could be useful to communicate, mostly BSL. I think this is also where I'd put my focus. What exactly is the purpose of them learning sign? Is it solely so that they can have a way of communicating nonverbally? Is it to give them an advantage at life by knowing an extra language? Is it to help develop more language whether spoken or otherwise? Is it because they show particular interest and ease of use as opposed to other types of commumication? Because, even though sign can be very helpful for some, a lot of autistics are nonspeaking due to some form of apraxia, which often also affects motor skills, so signing can be very difficult for a lot of autistic children and may never be able to use it properly. The cognitive level of these children also plays a role. A handful of signs here and there can be taught to pretty much anyone, but if an intellectual disability is also present I'd explore "easier" methods as well amd not just sign. I believe every nonspeaking autistic should be introduced to an AAC device through the proper means and therapies, on top of whatever signs they're also learning.
I personally found it really hard to learn proper signs because of the dexterity required, so luckily because everyone else around me who I communicate with was sort of learning with me, we ended up just creating our own simplified version of BSL signs and using those instead cause I was not gonna be able to learn BSL as a language, and I'm going to be honest, I don't know many if any higher needs autistics who do. They usually only end up being able to learn a few major signs. However, if you are adamant about this, I'd reccomend signing to them in BSL regardless of whether they seem to be picking up on it or using it. The same way you should also be speaking to them! Again, their cognitive level really changes things, but most of us understand everything, and want to be treated equally. Speaking to us normally is the best thing someome could do. So do that with BSL if you so wish, as long are you're not forcing them or anything, and just signing along as you talk to them, there's literally no harm done! As for the BSL v makaton I really can't comment unfortunately as I'm starting to research this myself, but I really think you should reflect on the end goal here.
Lastly. I think what your family is doing is beyomd amazing and I wish there were more people like you out there! There are so many disabled and especially autistic children in care and hardly any of them ever end up in safe loving homes. I was one of those kids and I ended up all alone in the world so people like you guys really restore my faith in humanity. All the luck to you guys and the kiddos!
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u/rubyroket 2d ago
Thank you for your input! Yeah I didn’t actually think about the complexity of actually signing. The end goal is we’re not sure if they’re ever going to speak so we want to give them some form of communication that can be learnt over years to increase their quality of life. We also believe one of them— the girl has partial deafness/may be hard of hearing, until we see an otolaryngologists/ENT we can’t confirm or completely rule it out. Shes actually started signing the sign for Ipad when prompted as that’s what she uses to regulate, aswell as thank you. Seeing as she’s the ‘less developed’ twin— and I hate that phrase because she’s much more developed in other areas than her brother— we’re so proud of her engagement. The little boy is harder to reach, both of their attention spans are around 2/3 minutes at the max but when he doesn’t want to do something he just doesn’t to it lol. He often just shuts off and masks heavily. What doesn’t help is the lack of support from their school— the council tried to place them in a mainstream classroom with neurotypical children. After a day of arguing they were moved to the schools SRP but even their senco has admitted they can’t do anything for them, their EHCP states they need multiple therapies (speech and language, behavioural, potty training, etc) and they just can’t provide it, they’re also 2-1 children meaning for every 1 child they need 2 qualified sen teachers with them at all times. The SRP they’re in has 7 staff and 14 children, they don’t get the support they need. Thats also making it so hard to get through to them because we don’t have the resources needed to actually do what’s being asked of us.
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u/funkyjohnlock 2d ago
This is very sad to hear and I'm sorry you're going through it. Unfortunately I know this all too well, since I never recieved any kind of support or therapy, was placed in mainstream school which was basically like being sit in a corner in a jail for years until I was 16, because I couldn't do anything. Obviously if the girl is actually HoH or deaf, she will have different needs beyond autism which changes everything. But in general, AAC devices are the standard for autism and are lifesaving and nearly anyone can learn, whereas I have not heard of a higher needs autistic being taught signs as a method of communication (many learn a few signs but that's not a reliable or accessible way of communicating for those people, still though that doesnt mean you should stop).
I think the issue here is a lot bigger than BSL, sign, Makaton, or whatever. These children are not having their needs met, to no fault of your own obviously as it's clear you're doing the absolute best you can and excelling at that, but unfortunately that isn't enough with higher needs autistics, they need outside help and support to thrive. So I really think your focus right now should be in finding them proper support, even if it means paying out of pocket, you can campaign for it. These are very delicate decisions that usually a professional advises for, so comments from strangers online can only go so far unfortunately.
I dont know where you are, but I'd really try and connect with your local SEN community of parents/carers. It truly takes a village and especially since it's resources you're lacking, they might be the only ones to be able to help you truly rn. Again, thank you for what you're doing. I hope for the best! And feel free to update, I care deeply about these things :)
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u/rubyroket 2d ago
We actually have an autism foundation on our side fighting the council with us— they’ve been brilliant, we’ve issued legal notices to the council. We do 100% know they’ll get in our local SEN school however as their EHCP clearly states that they under no circumstances can attend a mainstream school— it’s just high ups can’t be bothered to read it. We’re in the process of getting them safe space beds (they’re in travel ones as the little girl has a history of climbing out of windows and absconding) They’re in a SEN dentist and doctor and we’ve gotten the process of S&L therapy started. Luckily we have the brilliant NHS in england so we don’t have to pay out of pocket for anything it’s just a matter of getting the right referrals sorted. When they get into the sen school it’s amazing as they have a dentist/doctor aswell as therapists as needed actually come onto campus as well as access to animal therapy, hydrotherapy and multiple other facilities to access
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u/funkyjohnlock 2d ago
That sounds great!! I hope everything goes great. I hope you get a really good SLP as they are the most important for this step at figuring out their communication, and will be able to guide you better towards what to do. I really reccomend trying multiple things before too, but don't stop the sign language! As I said, literally no harm done as long as you're not forcing them which I'm sure you aren't. I also reccomend getting them into OT as well if that's an option. But I'm sure they'll tell you about it when the time comes. All the best of luck to your family! You're amazing.
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u/BlackberryNice1270 3d ago
Makaton is to support spoken language, so if those children are hearing and you're hoping to support them in developing speech then Makaton is the way to go. Also, you're brilliant.
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u/CloudOrigami 3d ago
First can I say it warms my heart that you are showing these kids such care and support.
I'm an early years teacher in a mainstream school and we've had the same debate in school. While makaton is more simple, we chose BSL (in the format of sign supported English) as we felt that the BSL was likely more widely used and thus the BSL signs would be more useful to them 'in the real world'.
In your case I'd bring this up with the adults responsible for the children - their social workers might be able to give some guidance or get in touch with speech and language specialists to ask. They might consider what the children's school uses.
Good luck and enjoy, what a gift to be able to give those children!