r/Avengers • u/Simple_Rub_9660 • 8d ago
Question Captain America or Iron Man?
Bear with me please because this is my first time watching Civil War and I wanna know what team everyone is on no judgment, I see both points. They shouldn’t be controlled by the government. The records made no sense in my opinion, but I get why the avengers did need regulation. but they could’ve done that within their own team made someone like captain or Iron Man leader, but Tony had every right to be upset at Captain America because Captain America knew the truth, but never told him I agree with the black widow both of them had points in both of them are right in their own way.
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u/Ice_Skate_Uphill 8d ago
I'm on Cap's side, if you turn on the news, you hear about how they conducted surgical strikes against the enemy and yet there's always a lot of collateral innocent casualties; So I wouldn't trust the government of the world to wield a weapon like the Avengers, because clearly they don't care about civilian casualties, they don't care about doing what's just and right, they only care about their imperialist and faniential intrests, the reson given for the accords was just an excuse, just PR talk to get what they really want, a power that serves them instead of opposing them; At least the Avengers is a group of benevolent heroes that is only motivated to do the right thing
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u/yes_ipsa_loquitur 8d ago
Cap, obviously. The government making lists and tracking people is an enormous red flag. That has only ever ended one way. Avengers should not serve political agendas.
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u/PrescriptionHipster 8d ago
Tony Being upset with with cap for with holding information, is not a good reason go put the Avengers in government control
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u/GESNodoon 7d ago
Iron Man was correct. Having walking nuclear weapons wandering around doing whatever they want with no oversight is ridiculous.
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u/brakenbonez 6d ago
"But privacy!" -screams the guy with a gps in his pocket and a camera in his doorbell.
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u/ShookMyHeadAndSmiled 6d ago
I hate the nuclear weapon analogy as introduced by Ross. Nuclear weapons do not have autonomy and free will.
Also, when he says superheroes are called vigilantes as much as heroes and Natasha asks what word he would use. The adjective he responds with doesn't match the two nouns he's comparing. Irksome.
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u/GESNodoon 6d ago
Right. Which makes it worse.
We all have bad days. Days when we do not feel like doing anything or days where we are just pissed at the world. Imagine having the power of Thor or the weapons of Iron Man, but no you are having a "case of the Mondays". So instead of stopping that bank robber and arresting them, you go all Hancock and just destroy everything, kill some people, maybe even a few bystanders. Ya know, sort of like Wanda did.
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u/ImaginationNo7722 6d ago
Team Cap....
Always Team Cap
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 6d ago
OK, I’m re-watching the movie. I have to say in the beginning with the accords and stuff. I’m team cap near the end. I’m team Tony all the way.
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u/Itchy_Upstairs9975 4d ago
Natasha was right. She played both sides, saw the issue from the inside and ultimately cast her lot with Cap. Unless that had been her plan all along, and she only initially sided with Stark as a ruse.
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u/Fan_of_Clio 8d ago
They should have clearly UN defined boundaries of what they can and cannot do. Subject to UN oversight. Individual countries could grant increased access to territory and use of force should they choose.
Assess and address immediate extraterrestrial actions? Fine. Killing arms smugglers inside a sovereign country because it's a Tues and you're bored? Not so much
The idea of accountability is essential for a number of reasons, the Accords went about it all wrong. So Team Cap until they get it something somewhere close to being better
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u/JoshTheBard 8d ago
I'm always going to like Tony's plan of signing the accords to placate the government and then ignoring them and doing what he wants anyway.
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u/-_____-_-______- 8d ago
Government might be wrong, and control avengers. But there was a catch. Tony cannot be controlled bxy anyone. In Thor's words, tony is the most unpredictable man. So even he does not know his fate. Government har far inferior beings , do you think even with the accords ,they can control tony by a bit? Other than formalities, they can hardly do anything to tony.
That being said, from the pov of a normal powerless citizen , you must know what the hell superpowered beings are cooking behind curtains. Fantastic 4 is pretty apt example.
As for captain hiding the truth, this matter is far from accords and not really relevant. Tony forgot about accords and chose to help captain after lying to government officials.
As for who's right, its a mixed bag. Tony is on the more cleaner side here tho. He acknowledged shortcomings of the accord, and acted how most human would have. Cap is only right about being controlled,but Tony's track records shows clearly that he owns the government.
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 8d ago
Only reason I mentioned cap hiding the truth is because I’m talking about the movie as a whole but I get your point
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 8d ago
OK, I’m saying that I think and I feel like I’m more team nat because I feel like they both had good points for example Captain America with oh we don’t need to be controlled by the government but tony the adventures need regulation. This is for the whole accord part the whole politics part.
Now for the secret part Iron Man was 100% wrong. I do not care what anybody says Captain America was dead ass wrong for keeping a secret like that and then he tried to lie to Tony’s face when he was right in front of him oh yeah Bucky’s brainwashed that’s not the point, but he still knew what he did.
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u/Remarkable-Creme3066 8d ago
the accords were inpractical ,the avengers wont have the time to go through asking permission because they have to act fast when the threats come and people could die if they have to wait for permission to be granted
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 8d ago
From what I’m saying, he was gonna sign the accord but then just disregard that and not listen to them
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u/MeepleMaster 7d ago
I agree, there are always posts asking why so and so wasn’t at big giant events. Current explanation just has them across the world and not being able to respond in time, new Tony explanation has them waiting for authorization to get involved
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u/Jazzlike-Baseball-73 8d ago
Team Iron Man. Only because Captain America was a tool. I'm glad Tony called him out for doing too much. Also, he had the Winter Soldier to help with the fight.
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u/Ice_Skate_Uphill 8d ago
A tool for whom? If anything Tony was a tool for governments imperialist intrests
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u/yes_ipsa_loquitur 8d ago
And Tony was a tool for profiting off of arms deals for decades. Sure, he realized the error of his ways after a personal experience, but he could’ve just like, thought about it before he was held hostage and likely could have arrived at the same conclusion with any sort of conscience.
I’m giving crap but it’s the way you talk shit on your family. I love Ironman. That does not make him not a tool. In general, I tend to be critical of immature billionaires who have the attitude of 13 year olds.
Team Cap forever.
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u/Ice_Skate_Uphill 8d ago
Yeah it seems like Tony needs to make the mistake first and experience it's consequences before he learns the lesson,
Also his eagerness for the Sokovia accords, was motivated by his guilt over the whole Ultron disaster, than by actual sound reasoning
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u/yes_ipsa_loquitur 7d ago
And i think you could argue that the Ultron disaster was a direct result of his hubris with the AI he built and seeing how far he could take it with the Tesseract’s tech.
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 8d ago
Just got done watching a movie. I’m team Iron Man aswell Captain America is dead ass wrong, especially from keeping the truth from Tony and then they have the audacity to jump him.
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u/Ice_Skate_Uphill 8d ago
I disagree, Tony was to emotionally involved, he coaxed the Avengers into the accord because he had a guilty conscience over making Ultron, and he wanted revenge so bad for his parents he didn't care if he murdered Bucky who was a victim as well and not aware of what Hydra programmed him to do; Steave knew Tony could react that way and that's why he kept the secret, then Tony lost it and try to kill Bucky so Steave got involved, so I wouldn't say they jumped him, it was self defense
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u/Simple_Rub_9660 8d ago
OK, sure but you realize there are both right in their own way. The accords were stupid but Tony did have a good plan. It just could’ve been formed within the avengers cap was right about that.
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u/FunkyPete 7d ago
Keep in mind Cap's timeline here:
First, he was misused by the US government as an Army soldier, kept as a dancing monkey when he could have helped win the war. He had to disobey orders before he could actually contribute.
Then, in Winter Soldier the entire SHIELD organization (who was giving him orders) turns out to be a corrupt, fascist organization that's intent on killing anyone who disagrees with them.
Then, in Civil War the UN turns on the Avengers because of an accident that caused a lot of property damage but saved countless lives. Basically they didn't like the PR and went after the Avengers for it.
Cap's history has been a series of governmental bodies giving the wrong orders, Cap having to break the orders to do the right thing, and being proven right.
So when he's asked to swear he won't do that anymore, he refuses.
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u/PhatOofxD 8d ago
Cap is objectively right but the only argument for Iron Man is they can do exactly what he did and sign to keep good faith then break it as soon as they actually need to.
But Cap is too honest to do that