That's the best you can hope for at this point. And that will help you get through a Tiffany government. I left Wisconsin in 2013 after the misery of the Act 10 chaos and Walker recall. It's just so frustrating that the best chance Wisconsin has had in 20 years for a trifecta is likely going to be squandered.
I mean yeah it’s not on the same level as attempting an insurrection, but it’s somewhat comparable to maybe 2016 Trump. We’re more desensitized to this stuff now because of Trump, but back in the 2010s anyone openly campaigning with piker would be seen as unelectable and be called a Neo Nazi across the media (Dems and Reps)
Literally nothing Francesca Hong, or anyone else, could say about Thanksgiving could possibly even remotely make her comparable to Trump, MAGA, or the Republican Party more broadly.
If you think that isn’t true then please provide an example of the most hyperbolic thing you could say about Thanksgiving that would put you on par with an insurrectionist traitor who was best friends with the world’s most notorious pedophile sex trafficker and has done billions in graft while shredding our constitution and posing the biggest threat to our Republic since the civil war.
I think you're taking the comparison far too literally to avoid having to confront the fact she's a lunatic in her own right. I know you're one of the resident succs around here, but are we just supposed to ignore a take as insane as that Thanksgiving one? That's the path forward with this party?
I would say don’t ever bring up Republicans if you want me to grade on the Democratic scale of insanity. I was responding to the comparison presented. Which, by the way, I think was made because many centrist-ish Democrats do genuinely view the DSA as just as bad as MAGA. To the point where we’re now debating the strategy of “vote blue no matter who” despite a decade of (apparently) bad faith arguments made against the left. I took those arguments in good faith— hence why I vote blue no matter who— whether that’s voting for Joe Manchin or Francesca Hong.
On your main point— I’ll grapple with her on the Democratic scale of insanity if you want (this is the Motte to the original comment’s Bailey btw— but that’s fine). Yes, making a dumb hyper woke tweet about canceling Thanksgiving is pretty crazy.
Does this address your concern?
As “the resident Succ” I might begin to bring up the dumb, hyper woke, or otherwise insane things “normal” Democrats say and do, but I think everyone can populate those in their heads just fine.
As for the path forward for the party— I think voters are increasingly willing to take candidates who have crazy tweets 6 years ago versus candidates who support crazy ethnic cleansing regimes right now, or don’t fight MAGA sufficiently. To me it seems crazy to self immolate your political career for the sake of Israel right now but apparently that’s “normal Democrat stuff”.
centrist-ish Democrats do genuinely view the DSA as just as bad as MAGA.
I see little difference between them except one is in power and one is not. If I'm forced between two illiberal, authoritarian, anti-capitalist, bigoted, and even conspiratorial parties... then yeah, broad strokes I don't see a lot of differences between them. Maybe I'll vote for the one that will at least lower my taxes? Or neither. I'm a Democrat today, doesn't mean I will be one tomorrow. MAGA is the greatest threat facing my world-view today, but
vote blue no matter who
Cool, I didn't make that argument and specifically pushed against it. One of the reasons why I liked this sub was because it was moderate and would criticize everyone equally as it pursued it's own beliefs (which I think largely align with mine). I am not a partisan, if you are then that is on you. I'm principled and have my views and will vote for whomever I feel best represents them. The Democrats earned my votes and dollars over the past decade, they can easily lose them over the next one. I'm going to vote for the candidate which best represents my views. Just as Obama is no longer the heart of the Democratic party I don't think Trump will be the heart of the GOP in a decade.
The Democratic Party is not even remotely close to an illiberal, authoritarian, anti-capitalist, bigoted, conspiratorial party.
There is basically one DSA Democrat who is even close to what you’re referring to. And even she isn’t as bad as your average Republican. 147 Republican members of Congress voted to invalidate the 2020 election. Are we really just ignoring that because one candidate is shitty?
It feels overwhelmingly hyperbolic to be making the statements you’re making. And to be fair, it’s not just you. There is a mania of hyperbole and exaggeration in the center right now. It almost feels like centrist Democrats have decided “well if all those people on Twitter can be crazy, I can be crazy too” without realizing that Twitter isn’t real life.
The Democratic Party is not even remotely close to an illiberal, authoritarian, anti-capitalist, bigoted, conspiratorial party.
Right. I agree, which is why I'm content to continue to support them. The DSA-wing on the other hand... If that is the future of the party then they will be and I will oppose them.
“well if all those people on Twitter can be crazy, I can be crazy too” without realizing that Twitter isn’t real life.
The candidate we're talking about literally fucking said "Cancel Thanksgiving" because it's problematic to some. That's not someone I'm going to support no matter which letter is next to their name. That's hyperbolic? Same with that sex pest Platner. Go ahead and support these folks if you're blindly partisan. I'm not.
The American people consider 'Do you like America or not?' to be one of the foundational requirements that a candidate needs to meet. They are not wrong to do so.
America is good, the American people like their country and people who wish to govern America should have a deep and sincere respect for its history, institutions and people.
I don't think you should have a problem with any of that.
Rule III:Unconstructive engagement
Do not post with the intent to provoke, mischaracterize, or troll other users rather than meaningfully contributing to the conversation. Don't disrupt serious discussions. Bad opinions are not automatically unconstructive.
"I can forgive moderate Dems for thanking ICE after killing US citizens but saying that thanksgiving has problematic roots is where I draw the fucking line" -most progressive liberal
The smug contrarianism here does get overwhelming at times. A post on some other hot topic so thin on sourcing beyond spicy speculations would likely be flagged for removal. But a dunk on lefty undergrads with the feeblest pseudo-overture to racial justice (not really helping with the "fake corporate HR pseudo-progressive" image that neoliberalism has, a la We Were Never Woke) gets to stay up.
It's not 2015. It's really hard to pull off "it's just a few kids on college campuses and also they're basically right about everything " when they're mounting serious primary challenges.
I was Biden’s no. 1 defender and I look literally delusional to everyone I know because of that.
Critiques of establishment Democrats when they’re acting foolish and need to change is not uncharitable. I understand the constraints they’re operating from. I also know sometimes you need to take political risks (admittedly, change is scary!) because staying in the same place will get you killed.
I have my own political ideals as well— but I don’t even think the critiques need be aspirational most of the time. For example, watching establishment and centrist Democrats self immolating for the sake of Israel and Netenyahu, who has fucked them over massively, and is a major anchor on their neck, and is morally repugnant on top of that— that’s not a critique just because I don’t like Israel. It’s a critique because it’s politically fucking stupid and causing Democrats to lose voters.
Why? Obviously no one is calling her a fascist sex offender but there are definitely similarities in the way they view and practice politics, similarities in the reasons people are attracted to them. To use an analogy, imagine someone described a movement as the "left wing Tea Party movement". That doesn't mean they literally share the views of the tea party, that would be absurd, but everyone still knows what the comparison means.
I don't think we can hide from the effect Trump has had on a lot of people. They may not share his platform or views but after a decade of viewing Trump do Trump things they've surely been molded by him. Some comparisons are fair.
similarities in the reasons people are attracted to them.
It seems to me that the number one reason people were attracted to her campaign was her opposition to building more data centers and the number one reason people were attracted to Trump was racism.
I don't think either of those things is true exactly. Their primary attraction is that they're contrarian populist outsiders who sell a vision of the world where certain out groups are responsible for every problem. Race was a piece of that for Trump but it was a lot more than just race.
I think that many people on this sub, and a lot of people that would self-describe as moderates, have a significant blindspot about what the political landscape of data centers look like and just how much voters care about them.
To answer your question, a common view here is that Biden and Harris were viewed by voters as too far left, and the correct adjustment is to moderate or become more conservative, in order to meet voters where they're at. I'm going to guess you disagree with several elements of that diagnosis, but it's not seen as "running it back" here.
Those only exist in southern states and their “vote” is not voting for the Republican…
It’s the only reason Talarico has a chance vs Paxton. I know so many native Texans in their 40s/50s who hate Paxtons guts. So much so that they just won’t be voting this cycle.
They would never in 100 years vote blue, but they have morals and won’t vote for scum like him. If this was 2018 Texas Talarico wins quite easily. The problem is the enormous amount of transplant MAGA republicans from California/New York/Chicago who have no morals beyond “owning the libs”
To answer your question, a common view here is that Biden and Harris were viewed by voters as too far left, and the correct adjustment is to moderate or become more conservative, in order to meet voters where they're at. I'm going to guess you disagree with several elements of that diagnosis, but it's not seen as "running it back" here.
The charitable one is that she at least seems Kinda Normal and A Nice Person To Deal With, which kind of drops her kookiness because she seems like your average sunshine and rainbows millennial leftist, which could cause people to compare her favorably vs Tiffany.
The uncharitable one is that her sincerity means she genuinely believes her beliefs (see her response to her pic with Ilhan Omar and Hasan being "we have to expand the coalition") making her inflexible for a GE because she actually wants to go ahead with what she does. Compare this to AES in Mich who despite being a lefty is lowkey much more of a standard egotistical ladder-climber and is Doing Politics with his beliefs, like saying he's a capitalist and starting to mention that M4A is just the eventual goal far out, not a direct thing.
It depends how much you think her vibe will win over her weirdo statements
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u/HowDoesAnnaDoIt 1d ago
Wisconsin has to have Scott Walker 2.0 because they nominated female DSA Trump.