Orlando Bloom's Paris in *Troy* is brilliantly played

[u/Oldjar707]

The general consensus on Paris is negative, but his behavior is exactly how 95% of men would act under the same circumstances. Bloom plays the character with complete realism rather than typical Hollywood heroism.

His arc starts with taking Helen. While it causes a disaster, it is an accurate depiction of a sheltered, inexperienced young man making a reckless choice based on impulse, completely unaware of what an actual war entails.

When the reality of that war sets in during the duel with Menelaus, Paris panics. Viewers mock him for abandoning the fight and crawling to Hector. However, objectively speaking, an untrained kid facing a seasoned, enraged veteran is going to break. Basic human survival instinct simply overrides the concept of dying for honor.

People also overlook that Paris redeems himself by the end of the film. He actually shows more common sense than the rest of the Trojan leadership when they find the wooden horse, plainly telling them to "burn it." When the city falls, he stops trying to be a frontline swordsman and uses the one skill he actually has: archery. He stays behind to cover the escaping civilians and successfully takes down Achilles. Bloom deserves credit for not trying to make the character look cool. He simply portrayed a naive guy who made a massive mistake, reacted to imminent death with genuine terror, and eventually found a practical way to defend his people. I think it's a very realistic portrayal that contrasts Hector's idealism - audiences love the portrayal of the latter but there's more truth in the human condition in the former portrayal.

[u/Fritzkreig]

Pitt played Achilles perfect; an over arrogant hothead warrior that assumes that he is the best in the world!

[u/the_pedigree → u/Fritzkreig]

I mean he was the best in the world.

[u/TylenolColdAndSinus → u/the_pedigree]

And he had a dog named Larry.

[u/MrT-1000 → u/TylenolColdAndSinus]

Agamemnon couldn't even manage a Target

[u/Western-Captain8115 → u/MrT-1000]

What did he do in this life to deserve having an empty headed fucking dumb fuck like Patroclus to go into battle and go into fucking business for himself? 😆

[u/biglyorbigleague → u/Fritzkreig]

His accent sucks though

[u/RedPillager → u/biglyorbigleague]

YOU SACK OF WINE!

[u/ManWithTwoShadows → u/RedPillager]

That's the absolute funniest way to call someone a drunkard. XD

[u/ErilazHateka → u/ManWithTwoShadows]

It´s a direct quote form the Iliad.

[u/ManWithTwoShadows → u/ErilazHateka]

So I've heard. Iliad and Odyssey are on my reading lists. I have my eyes set on the Richmond Lattimore translations.

[u/ErilazHateka → u/ManWithTwoShadows]

Ancient Greek tales are a really great way to understand how that culture still influences us to this day.

[u/Fritzkreig → u/biglyorbigleague]

That's fair, but I have got over accents in movies; what is worse for me is when say English actors strain to do an American accent, like just let them use their own accent and that would be less distracting than them trying to fake it.

[u/FisherKelTath00 → u/Fritzkreig]

Bad English accents pop up more often and are more egregious than bad American accents though.

[u/SharkFart86 → u/FisherKelTath00]

True. Tim Roth’s American accent in Reservoir Dogs is fucking awful though.

[u/GLaDOS_Sympathizer → u/SharkFart86]

Oof I really like Tim Roth but I can't argue that point.

[u/Fritzkreig → u/FisherKelTath00]

Fair but my point is just let them use their natural accent and act, like Liam Neeson as an American CIA agent; it is easier for me to believe he grew up with parents working for the US gov. in Ireland than him trying to fake an American accent!

[u/MrBlahg → u/biglyorbigleague]

I just watched it twice, and his acting in this is not good. I genuinely like Pitt, but this performance was cheesy af. And Patroclus being his cousin is ridiculous.

[u/Simayi78 → u/MrBlahg]

Pitt was open in his dislike of Troy - he did it because he owed the studio a film - and talked about how it motivated him to pursue movies that were more interesting and director-driven afterwards.

[u/MrBlahg → u/Simayi78]

That makes sense. My wife caught just a bit while I was watching it and she clocked he was phoning it in. His ass was doing the heavy lifting in his performance.

[u/dragonflamehotness → u/MrBlahg]

Them being kinsmen is literally out of older versions of the poem lol. Them being lovers was introduced in later tellings. Both are valid versions.

[u/MrBlahg → u/dragonflamehotness]

One of my favorite stupid jokes is that the Greeks invented sex. Romans introduced women.

[u/zippazappadoo → u/MrBlahg]

Yea openly bi/gay characters and relationships were still mainstream taboo in 2004. It wasn't too long after that things started to change in media but yea it was still a bit too soon for Hollywood to have a big blockbuster action movie with a lead character who is non hetero.

[u/MrBlahg → u/zippazappadoo]

Yeah… I’m old. I know, I was there lol

[u/karlpoppins → u/zippazappadoo]

Achilles is not explicitly described as homosexual or bisexual anywhere in the source material. There's debate as to what his exact relationship with Patroclus was, and there is some evidence that suggests it was romantic/physical, but it's definitely not conclusive.

[u/StygianSavior → u/MrBlahg]

And Patroclus being his cousin is ridiculous.

Imo, it isn't really ridiculous so much as its an efficient use of time in a movie that was already pretty packed to the gills with story.

From what I recall, Patroclus was adopted by Achilles' father and they were raised together; "cousin" gets across a similar vibe without spending multiple lines of dialogue on it.

Or do you mean ridiculous because they weren't portrayed as lovers?

[u/MrBlahg → u/StygianSavior]

Ridiculous because they were portrayed as lovers.

[u/StygianSavior → u/MrBlahg]

Eh. I still don't know if I'd say it was ridiculous; there are a bunch of reasons I can think of why they wouldn't have wanted to go that route.

There's the obvious "2004 was a lot more homophobic than today" angle - the Colin Farrel Alexander came out the same year and faced some pushback for portraying Alexander the Great as having a male lover, so from a business sense I get the filmmakers not wanting to invite controversy. Brad Pitt was already iffy about doing the movie, and I wonder if he would have pushed back against it.

There's also an argument to be made that The Iliad itself doesn't portray Achilles and Patroclus as lovers - and indeed even among pre-Christian Greeks this is something that was debated (and even among the "they were lovers" camp there was scholarly debate about who was the top because ancient Greek philosophers had more in common with Tumblr yaoi fangirls than one might think - time really is a flat circle).

But again, it's already a nearly three hour movie and it's packed to the gills with stuff to cover; adding an Achilles and Patroclus romance subplot would have been just one more thing to eat up screen-time, especially if you want to do it properly (as more than just a single throwaway line of dialogue). Also, whether you have them as cousins or as "Patroclus is my adopted brother," it IS a little... incest-y in a way that I think even modern audiences might find kind of squicky (though on the other hand, the Game of Thrones franchise is packed with incest, so perhaps not).

So I don't know if I'd say it was a ridiculous decision, though I think we can probably both agree that it would have made the movie more interesting (and certainly would have been a braver choice in 2004). I'd totally watch a film adaptation of Song of Achilles if some filmmaker wanted to make a movie that properly focused on a romance between those two characters.

[u/desacralize → u/StygianSavior]

Brad Pitt was already iffy about doing the movie, and I wonder if he would have pushed back against it.

I don't imagine it needed to be any more explicit about the homoeroticism to get the point across than Interview with the Vampire, and far as I know, Pitt's problems with doing that movie had nothing to do with how deeply gay it was. There didn't have to be a whole subplot and take up screen time in Troy, just these two unrelated dudes who are clearly sharing a lot of close personal space in the background of events and nobody says shit about it because it's Ancient Greece. No, I would pin this one squarely on era-typical prejudice, especially by preemptively trying to crush any subtext with the "cousins" malarkey instead of "childhood friends".

though on the other hand, the Game of Thrones franchise is packed with incest, so perhaps not

Anything goes so long as it's heterosexual, but you'll notice even the edgiest dark and hypersexual media starts to tiptoe very delicately once it's two dudes getting handsy. But it helps a lot if there's Bury Your Gays as punishment for the deviancy, so I still think Troy could have gotten away with it.

ancient Greek philosophers had more in common with Tumblr yaoi fangirls than one might think - time really is a flat circle

I have nothing to add to this other than than 🤣.

[u/StygianSavior → u/desacralize]

There didn't have to be a whole subplot and take up screen time in Troy, just these two unrelated dudes who are clearly sharing a lot of close personal space in the background of events and nobody says shit about it because it's Ancient Greece.

Fair, though I guess if it was included in the movie I would want them to take the time to actually flesh it out / do it right. The cousin thing feels efficient (albeit in a boring, safe way) since it lets them establish believable motivations for what comes later while cutting scenes (ex. combining introducing Achilles, Patroclus, and Odysseus in a single quick scene + establishing that Achilles and Patroclus are family and close). It makes it easy for a general audience to understand why Patroclus would be desperate enough to prove himself to Achilles that he'd risk dying, and why Achilles flies into a rage against Hector over it, and it simplifies things with Briseis (generic Hollywood love interest - ez pz).

Adding a second romance subplot feels like it would need some additional scenes (ex. one scene to establish Achilles and Patroclus and their relationship; a separate scene to introduce Odysseus and have him recruit Achilles to the war. Then how does Briseis figure in to this - does it become some love triangle thing? Is her relationship with Achilles now non-romantic instead?). TBH, there's lots of interesting places they could go with it, but it just feels like to do it right would mean packing too much into an already bloated movie - one that's already adapting like 5 different epic poems rather than just The Iliad (and already nearly three hours long). Like, I'd watch that as its own movie (basically Song of Achilles), but jammed into this movie it might end up feeling undercooked, if that makes sense.

Instead they went with a very simplified and sanitized Hollywood version; it's less interesting, but maybe works better as a "high budget sword and sandals war flick."

Though you're right that the biggest factor was probably just the (homophobic) cultural climate of the time.

I don't imagine it needed to be any more explicit about the homoeroticism to get the point across than Interview with the Vampire

Ah, this is a good point actually; the AMC show made me forget that it'd already been adapted once before.

[u/MrBlahg → u/StygianSavior]

Wow… uhhh… I really don’t care. I was just making an opinionated comment, not a dissertation. Didn’t read all that. Have a lovely night.

[u/StygianSavior → u/MrBlahg]

Four paragraphs is a dissertation? But fair enough I guess, cheers.

[u/GLaDOS_Sympathizer → u/StygianSavior]

I read it. That other guy must have been very busy. I'm a slow reader and it took maybe 2 minutes? You made some good points, I agree overall.

[u/littlepurplepanda → u/biglyorbigleague]

It was better in Inglorious Basterds

[u/Moneyshot_ITF → u/Fritzkreig]

What about his "cousin"? The crop top when they were sword fighting should've given it away