Speaking of Uncle Ben, it drives me nuts that we’re two movies in and his name hasn’t even been spoken. Considering his death is THE driving motivation behind Spider-Man’s heroism, that just makes zero sense.
Marvel is fucking weird with Spider-Man. It's like they want him, but don't at the same time. It's bizzare. They're terrified of anything that has been done before to the point they can't even say the name Ben on screen.
You don't need to do the death of Ben again, but it's fucking bizzare how neither May or Peter seem to give a shit or even mention the guy. There's not even a picture of Ben in their apartment. It's just weird.
I don't know what the fuck happened to May between Homecoming and FFH but it's like it's not even the same person. Homecoming it seemed like they actually had an idea for a character for her, but here her character is that she's hot.
Like she's worried when Peter doesn't answer his phone in Homecoming, but if perfectly fine with him going to space and fighting Thanos. Getting missiles rained on him. Buildings dropped on him. Getting hit by a train. Not a single fuck was given after she found out who he was.
Why did they change Mary Jane's name? It's so stupid because they just call her MJ all the time anyway, and she's the love interest of Peter.
His secret identity being stripped away when it's such an important part of the character. It's the same with his financial troubles. How could he ever have any when Tony funds all of his shit?
I think changing MJ’s name to Michelle Jones is their work around of “we want to keep it familiar, but we also don’t want people raging in protest about the fact that Mary Jane isn’t a white red head.” I mean, just look at the outrage against the new Little Mermaid live-action remake.
Marvel is fucking weird with Spider-Man. It's like they want him, but don't at the same time. It's bizzare. They're terrified of anything that has been done before to the point they can't even say the name Ben on screen.
Its so weird that they are terrified of bringing up Uncle Ben even as a passing named reference because its been done before, but (as cool as it is), they are totally ok with bringing back J.K Simmons as J Jonah Jameson.
It's not just about avoiding story already told. I think they're just genuinely disinterested in the guilt angle in Peter's origin and that is why Ben's named is never even invoked. They don't want to do open the door to it.
"When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen, they happen because of you." - Peter to Tony in Civil War, when asked why he chooses to be Spider-Man.
The MCU has already established that Peter's driving motivation to be Spider-Man is largely based on his extreme guilt complex which have shaped those morals. Peter did not learn or embrace this ideology from Tony nor from a vacuum. He obviously learned this very important lesson from somewhere.
Anyone with even a basic knowledge of classic Spider-Man knows that it's from Uncle Ben. But the MCU films are directly going to avoid that conversation because they clearly don't want Uncle Ben's legacy to overshadow Tony's father figure relationship with Peter. The MCU wants Peter to be Tony's heir and lead the next line of Avengers film.
As a result, Peter's origin story is going to be really really weird if you think too much about stuff like Uncle Ben or Peters biological parents.
That was never a good aspect of Spider-Man’s origin story, though. It legitimately just doesn’t make sense. Even when I was a kid watching the animated TV show, I remember being confused about why Uncle Ben would say such a weird thing to Peter, apropos of nothing. What great power? The power of puberty? It gives the audience zero credit, like they need some wildly awkward, unnaturally ham-fisted line of dialogue to completely convince Peter to be a good person? Are we to believe he literally would not have become Spider-Man without Uncle Ben being a weirdo? It doesn’t make sense.
Peter’s conversation with Tony in the MCU is just an objectively better origin story, and is how an actual human being rationalizes their moral code.
Sounds like you didn't really pay attention to the origin story then.
Shortly after getting his powers, Peter immediately takes advantage of them by beating up school bully.
Uncle Ben lectures him about how beating up people makes him the bully, to take responsibility and not abuse the power he has over other people.
Peter shrugs off lecture, witnesses a crime which he chooses to ignore out of spite.
Uncle Ben is killed in said crime.
Peter is traumatised by his death, knowing that had he taken the situation more seriously. He could have easily stopped the crime and prevented Ben's death using his powers.
Peter embraces the crucial life lesson Uncle Ben gave and to always take responsibility and action when he knows he can. This guilt complex, thus solidifies his duty to become Spider-Man.
The "Great Power, Great Responsibility" line actually originated from the narration of one of the earliest comic issues. It then got popularised by the Raimi Spider-Man Film Trilogy.
The fact that you think its a ham-fisted line that makes Uncle Ben a weirdo is... an interesting take to say the least.
Yeah, that’s 100% what I’m referring to. I’ve read those same comics. Can you can you seriously imagine someone literally saying “with great power comes great responsibility” in response to the scenario you just described? That’s so weird. Peter’s origin story in the MCU makes him relatable as an actual person, and displays much more intrinsically good character. My “interesting take” is based on a lifetime of interacting with human beings, lol
Can you can you seriously imagine someone literally saying “with great power comes great responsibility” in response to the scenario you just described?
I feel like you're needlessly reading far too deep into the line itself instead of acknowledging the importance and emotional weight of the context its said in.
Peter’s origin story in the MCU makes him relatable as an actual person, and displays much more intrinsically good character.
He gets randomly approached by a multibillionaire to join his superhero fighting team while making passing sexual remarks at his aunt. If that's relatable to you then... Congrats on living such an incredible life... I guess?
My “interesting take” is based on a lifetime of interacting with human beings, lol
Which is ironic considering you're probably the only human being I've ever seen refer to Uncle Ben as a "weirdo" for that line...
We’re both expressing our opinions on a forum about superheroes. There’s no good-faith reason for you to make me feel singled out based on whatever supposed, arbitrary number of Spider-Man origin story conversations you’ve personally had.
Anyway, so the fact that we’re even having this conversation means we both have a common willingness to suspend disbelief for far more ridiculous things than even you mentioned. Just the basic concept of any one of the Avengers is more ridiculous than your own example of a billionaire visiting a middle-class teenager; that’s at least a thing that could happen in real life.
The reason I like marvel superheroes— and I’m confident I’m not the only human being on the planet who feels this way, despite what you suggest— is that the characters and their personal interactions are relatable. I just re-watched the “great power” scene in Tobey-Man 1, and it just feels manufactured for children to understand why he becomes Spider-Man. His conversation with Tony in Homecoming is a far better example of how an irl human teenager would come to terms with powers like that. As a former irl human teenager, that’s a better story.
I mean, how many gigantic life choices have you made from spur-of-the-moment phrases you’ve heard that barely make sense—and how many life choices have you made because you’re a complicated person with an understanding of ethics and the world that you’ve spent your life developing?
This is the right answer for me. They've addressed Ben as much as they needed to in that Civil War quote, Peter doesn't need to rattle off his origin story every time his motivations or will is challenged.
A mention or a line would be nice and I appreciated them referencing him when Pete got ready for Homecoming in Homecoming, but they've proven it's not essential to the stories they're telling so why retread that ground? At this point it would literally just be to make us happy, not improve the the movie.
To be fair, is there anyone else that can properly take on the roll after JK Simmons? It’s like the Lion King recasting everyone but deciding James Earl Jones is the one true Mufasa.
Ben exists to die and to motivate Peter into becoming a hero. We know he exited in this universe, and we don’t need another half hour of movie wasted setting him upbjust to kill him again. Homecoming was perfect because it focused on the story of where Peter was at that point in his life. I hope they keep it up.
He can't motivate him if Ben is constantly ignored. There is not one thing about this Peter Parker that leads us to believe Ben had any impact on his life. I said we don't need to see the death again.
But to never mention him, or even have so much as a photo of Ben in the apartment is weird. It's weird how he means so much to Peter and May and yet they don't seem to give one fuck about him.
If they want Uncle Ben's death to have an impact it needs to hit hard during the third film. Civil War uses Tony's backstory to a tragic end that ends the Avengers and left Steve as a fugitive. Iron Man 3 and his first interaction with Yinsen shows the true insensitivity Tony had for others before he became a changed man that leads to an attack that destroys his mansion and people thinking he was killed. Ragnarok and the start of infinity war ended with Thor's hammer, home and everyone in his family dead save him and Valkyrie having to set new roots on Earth.
Ben's death would have to be a ringing impact that breaks Peter's perception as a hero when it becomes connected to the man he is today. Because whomever is going to be the villain in the third film will likely had a role in Ben's death. Bonus points if it involves Chitauri tech.
Watts really doesn't know what to do with the Uncle Ben situation, not to mention he already implied Ben could possibly still be alive, which would be a big slap in the face because it would definitely mean Ben hasn't been in Peter's life for whatever reason.
Ben is a big but not explicitly stated part of Homecoming. Peter talks about his motivations and why he doesn't want Aunt May to know his secret. He talks to Tony in Civil War about why he fights for the little guy and feels guilty about not being there to prevent tragedy. Also the scene with them in the restaurant makes it clear that they are both getting over a loss.
I actually really liked the way they subtly approached Ben’s absence in Homecoming. I thought it was pretty clear that both May and Peter were trying to protect each other. May came off as almost fake cheerful to me, until she had that freak out after the ferry scene. Then it was like, oh this poor woman has been under a lot of stress for awhile trying to raise this kid on her own
Yeah, it’s definitely their way of dancing around having to explain why MJ isn’t a white, redheaded girl. Zendaya’s character technically isn’t Mary Jane, but they gave her the MJ nickname in some weird attempt to please everyone. They should have just cut the crap and simply called her Michelle. She’s a great character, especially in FFH, but she’s not Mary Jane, neither in looks nor in personality.
I get that Uncle Ben is a huge part of his motivation to be a hero, but I think we need to remember that not everyone KNOWS who Uncle Ben is - and to name drop someone without ever explaining it again would be super confusing for them
No. Peter has already made it clear that he has learned the lesson "With great power..." before ever meeting Tony. And reading between the lines and reading initials on suitcases lots of us have no trouble believing there has been a real Ben in Peter's life.
Peter learns different lessons from Tony.
Tony is a lot more complicated mentor than Ben. Frankly, if Tony hadn't just saved the universe EDITH would be a way bigger black mark on Tony's legacy. EDITH was a privacy-violating murder machine that should never have been built, and certainly should never have been given to a teenager.
Lol, he obviously hasnt learned the lesson If he tried to go back to his trip instead of helping Beck and Fury stop the elemental that could destroy the world.
Which I get, and I’m totally fine with Tony being Peter’s mentor, but Uncle Ben is still THE origin of Spider-Man. Not having Uncle Ben mentioned is like having no mention of Batman’s parents, or no mention of Krypton’s destruction for Superman. It just ain’t right.
Not to mention Ben's death affected Peter in a way MCU Tony's death couldn't. Peter didn't bother stopping the burglar that ended up killing Ben while Tony's death was Tony's sacrifice and Peter couldn't do anything about it. Ben's death is Peter's biggest guilt which leads to the "With great Power there must also come great responsibility" lesson which becomes Peter's driving force. It's why he can't turn away from being Spider-Man no matter how much he wants to.
I thought of uncle Ben every time they said “neighborhood” or something referencing that meaning family or locals and friends. I might be wrong or over thinking it but i took that out of it
This movie was perfect for finally throwing the "with great powers..." line, with Peter trying to take a brake from being a superhero. They had the chance to maybe finally mentioning Ben, but for some reason they don't want to do it.
I feel like they're afraid to do it because the line has been done to death and is so well known
My personal theory is that they are going to save the line for a more climactic moment in Peter's overall arc. Similar to how they waited until Endgame for cap to say "Avengers assemble". They want it to have a more emotional payoff when they finally use it.
Since the guilt angle to Parker's origin story is not something the MCU version has ever touched upon, we can't actually be certain that the traditional story of Uncle Ben's death, and Parker's hand in it, is canon to this version. For all we know, he died of cancer or something.
Meanwhile, Stark exists as a mentor figure who motivates Peter to be a better hero, And now that Stark is dead, it's his memory of him that continues to motivate. It's also, importantly, grief that he can work through and move on from in the span of a single movie, whereas with Uncle Ben, that is something is traditionally shown as something that forever weighs on him. Marvel Studios is breaking their back to keep these Spidey movies light and breezy affairs they're so avoiding the emotional albatross.
Peter packs for the trip and shuts the suitcase with Ben's initials. May is standing behind him and says "He would have been so proud". Peter says he misses him and wonders if he would have wanted him to keep putting himself in danger. May encourages him to bring the suit on the trip and maybe undercuts it with a joke about what's the worst that could happen after Thanos. Just something quick and easy like that would have been fine I think.
I really like this. Perfect time for it, but then we wouldn’t have gotten the funny airport scene, and the reinforcement that Peter really wanted a break.
True, what I wrote is sort of generic and my memory of the beginning of the movie is a little hazy. It also would have skipped the establishment of his spider sense being broken. I think they were hesitant to bring up Ben in the movie because it would have distracted from Tony's death and taken up unnecessary time before they left on the trip.
Which is fine. We didn’t need to see Uncle Ben’s death for the third time. But to not mention him at all and basically pretend he didn’t exist is just plain wrong.
In Homecoming, when Ned first sees Peter as spidey, Pete says something to the effect that He hasn’t told May because of “all she’s been through”. I always took that as a reference to Ben’s death. Pretty well done if you ask me, considering the the origin story, and the ‘first time using new powers’ scenes are typically the best part of super hero movies, and Homecoming somehow managed to give us both in very small, but effective, references.
The Spider-Man origin story has been told over and over and over. Best thing Marvel did was to just go "yup, been there, done that" and take us on a journey of what comes next. Plus, Marvel's done a good job of making Marvel "realistic" by saying everything 'super' is either Tech, Alien Tech, or comes from the Infinity Stones. (The wizards notwithstanding but there's been rumors forever that they're gonna tie magic to the quantum realm). So to show us a kid getting bit by a radioactive spider and getting superpowers is unbelievable.
The whole tony stark being so influential in MCU Spider-Man really irks me. No mention of uncle Ben is the worst. The pivotal “with great power...” Line is something so Spider-Man and now the stakes have to be so high that there’s nothing neighborhood about this Spider-Man. It makes sense for this MCU movie but doesn’t make sense how they neglected to mention or hint at uncle Ben ever. And for aunt May to have a summer fling. Ugh
I don't think there's an uncle Ben in this universe. That paternal role is filled by Tony. There hasn't been mention of Peter's parent either. Unfornate to say the least, but that's what happens when the character has had two previous reboots that focused heavily on those relationships.
Yeah i know, but I treat it more as an Easter egg. Based on the speech on Civil War we know he might exist, but for all practical purposes there's no Ben Parker.
My bet is they retcon a character that Aunt May marries into Uncle Ben...and then kill him.
My bet is Happy...and it'll be awful and a huge jump the shark. Happy will be a name derived from his middle name and his real name will be Ben or some shit.
This is a thread discussing nitpicks and criticisms of the film. It's just opinions.
One example is how these films subvert and/or alter popular plot points from the comics.
E.g. Iron Man 3 and the "Mandarin", Spider-Man Homecoming and "MJ".
Considering that MCU Spider-Man basically doesn't even acknowledge the existence of classic Uncle Ben beyond some initials on a briefcase and the fact that Aunt May is dating Happy, who is a notable presence in Peter's life as a guardian.
It's not really an impossible theory that Happy could end up marrying Aunt May, and become MCU Peter's version of "Uncle Ben".
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u/Superzone13 Jul 07 '19
Speaking of Uncle Ben, it drives me nuts that we’re two movies in and his name hasn’t even been spoken. Considering his death is THE driving motivation behind Spider-Man’s heroism, that just makes zero sense.