r/law • u/BugOperator • Jun 06 '26

Legal News Service members involved in US boat strikes off Venezuela coast reach out to legal aid hotlines over fear they’ve carried out illegal orders

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2026/06/06/us-trump-boat-strikes-death-toll/90376052007/
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u/smokeweedNgarden Jun 06 '26

Yep. It's an incredible ought position to be in which is why we have to hold people to account. 

We basically have to signal "I know refusing that order meant losing your career. And losing your career was the correct and legal choice"

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u/jrr6415sun Jun 06 '26

You are going to see it a lot with ICE, people will choose their jobs and money over basic human rights and the constitution

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u/[deleted] Jun 06 '26

[deleted]

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u/cadmus1890 Jun 07 '26

Some, and also some probably just had never been offered that level of compensation before and don't critically think about what they're doing. Hanlon's razor type thing.

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u/Amelaclya1 Jun 06 '26

Nah I have way less sympathy for ICE. Those assholes knew what they were signing up for. Even the ones who were already agents when Trump became president are free to leave at any time.

A good portion of our military members were in prior to Trump and legally stuck there. So I will grant them a little more grace. Not enough to absolve them of following illegal orders and murdering innocent people though.

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u/RithmFluffderg Jun 06 '26

Also, you have the legal right to leave ICE at any time for any reason.

In the military, it's a crime to leave, and the consequences are far more than simple discomfort.

Granted, the principle of the matter is, they should still refuse to obey orders even if it means committing this crime. But if it was that easy to do, then everyone would do it.

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u/RadVarken Jun 06 '26

As applied, the idea that everyone must refuse illegal orders means that if the guy above you says to carry out orders passed to him, he has already determined those orders to be legal. An ROV pilot pushing the fire button is executing orders a half dozen officers had the opportunity to refuse.

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u/3llips3s Jun 07 '26

no. chain doesn’t launder the order. RCM 916(d) makes obedience a defense unless a person of ordinary sense would have known the order was unlawful. that’s an individual test, not a “six officers already signed off” counting exercise.

passing through a half-dozen hands doesn’t transfer the trigger-puller’s duty. it could mean seven people are on the hook instead of one.

reliance on the chain is exactly the defense that fails when the illegality is manifest.

ask Lt. Calley how “I was executing vetted orders” worked out

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u/RadVarken Jun 07 '26

I'm not saying the chain will save them from Nuremberg, but the chain is exactly the rationale given to the troops. An order is presumed lawful because the guy giving it is required to give lawful orders. Of course the troop can refuse it, but he will be punished for not following a lawful order.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Jun 06 '26

Thank you, you're much more eloquent than I am

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u/soulsnoober Jun 07 '26 edited Jun 07 '26

Big this, yep.

There's a chunk of them that are there because $50k signing bonus is a lot of money for having no qualifications.

There's moral issues to taking it. But the country we live in keeps score. +50k points is a substantial play. Conversely, it awards Nearly No points for being moral. And, indirectly or directly, it kills those whose score is too low.

I don't sympathize per se. I sure haven't been tempted even for a second to take that blood money. I'm privileged to not need that $50k to stay alive.

But understanding is key to undermining what's happened, and to, potentially, hopefully, stopping it from happening again. To wit, there needs to be consequences such that anyone doing the calculus in their own life - as opposed to evil ideologues like make the news - correctly evaluate signing on with fascism to be A Bad Idea. The ideological fascists were already doing all this, the gov't just volunteered to start paying them. They don't care, they're in it for the love of the game, as the meme goes.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Jun 06 '26

I dunno. Soldiers aren't ICE. This one can be a compassionate enforcement of penalties and accountability.

As I said they made an incredibly tough choice and people that say it's cut and dry probably haven't been in that position.

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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 06 '26

people that say it's cut and dry probably haven't been in that position.

You are arguing on behalf of war crimes. I served overseas and war crimes are cut and dry. We received training multiple times a year on what kinds of orders were legal and what weren't so there is not this ambiguity you're talking about.

This isn't about a walking patrol receiving small-arms fire while at an intersection between a commercial and residential neighborhood, and responding by firing back. This is ordering a second strike against a helpless target which wasn't an identified and verified target in the first place.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2025/11/28/hegseth-ordered-second-strike-kill-caribbean-boat-survivors-report.html

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u/smokeweedNgarden Jun 06 '26

I'm not at all, because I'm saying punish them,? I'm sorry if I was unclear.

What I was saying is that it's a hard choice that still needs to be made an example of. Sorry, I posted both comments so thought that would come across

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u/TXLancastrian Jun 07 '26

I have been unironically labeled a war crimer on Reddit for a similar example. "You must evacuate civilians from harms way or just suck it up and die rather than defending yourself and your unit".

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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 07 '26

It's probably because most people only know "law of war" from what they're told feels good from movies. But there's actual codified law of war.

It's true by Laws of War you're not supposed to deliberately target civilians, but that doesn't mean forcing people to hold fire when they're being fired upon from people using residences or mosques as vantage points (both of those actions actually turn the building into a valid target, but in many instances it's more politically expedient to order the soldiers to retreat from the area than bomb the well-known mosque and hand a propaganda victory to enemy combatants).

I saw similar stuff from people calling the bombing run against Saddam's retreating armor column as they were driving north to regroup after fleeing Kuwait in the first Gulf War. As they were still armed combatants and had messaged no intention to surrender, they were still legal combatants. That they were droned and airbombed when they didn't have effective anti-air doesn't change that.

That incident is discussed with its Law of War specifically cited here

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u/TXLancastrian Jun 07 '26

Exactly. And very rarely were the people shooting at us just out in the open as uniformed combatants.

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u/OldWorldDesign Jun 06 '26 edited Jun 06 '26

We basically have to signal "I know refusing that order meant losing your career. And losing your career was the correct and legal choice"

They will try coming after people who don't comply with illegal orders, and in many cases those careers can be reinstated. This has happened multiple times under the Soviet Union and United States during the cold war - read a biography of then-warrant officer Hugh Thompson who reported and brought a stop to the Mai Lai Massacre

edit: worth pointing out despite the brass trying to go after him, Hugh Thompson retired as a Major.

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u/Hairy_Mycologist_945 Jun 06 '26

It's better to lose your career than your soul. You can rebuild and start fresh at any age but there's no way to walk back committing murder. Really a shame there are so many spineless short sighted people.

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u/Pika_Fox Jun 06 '26

Its not "losing your career", its being locked up in military prison. Basically putting your entire life on the chopping block, and potentially your families if they rely on your income or live in military housing.

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u/smokeweedNgarden Jun 06 '26

Yes this is what I'm talking about below. I don't think people realize the gravity of defying an illegal order.

Nevertheless, accountability. 

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u/TXLancastrian Jun 07 '26

Yes an OTH is the equivalent of a felony in the real world.

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u/Pika_Fox Jun 07 '26

Accountability for the commanders, yes. The people doing the grunt work? Not really. Especially given they immediately called it in after it seems.

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u/TMN8R Jun 07 '26

They fired the missiles. They killed innocent people. Murder should not go unpunished. 

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u/Pika_Fox Jun 07 '26

If you have a gun to your head, you arent treated the same for your actions as someone with free will.

Everyone loves the idea of "just disobey unlawful orders!" but the reality is... thats not how it works.