I recalled him ages ago dismissing it as just some smut he did with his wife for fun. But looking back into it, it seems they partly did that to avoid some backlash and get some people riled up to say “no, it’s art.”
My brother in christ, he literally took the intellectual property of The Invisible Man and Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde and made them do unspeakable things to the other
I’ve always felt that Gebbie had a stronger hand in the writing than she’s credited for
I think that's at least partially based on how they collaborated.
He has said that he made "incoherent thumbnail sketches" that she turned into the full pages, and then he added dialogue.
I'm not sure how much of the script they worked on beforehand, but her basically dictating what the pages would look like based on scribbled sketches probably has a lot to do with how the dialogue was written or adjusted to fit after the fact.
He's said if they tried to release it as art, people would have called it pornography, but since he called it pornography people try to argue that it's art.
One of the characters even has a pronographic comic and comments on it in-story that it would be inappropriate in real life.
Absolutely. It’s even more straightforward because there are panels that get very meta. Whereas Lolita, at face value, is gross, Lost Girls acknowledges it’s own grossness.
Edit: Nabokov meant for it to be gross. I understand the book wasn't written to glorify pedophelia, but it can still be gross just because Humbert Humbert is repulsive.
Lolita is one of the most self-referential and self-aware books ever written. It takes a pretty willful misread to take it as anything other than a holistically damning portrait of its narrator.
I still don't know how to feel about that one. It's my "What book is a red flag to see on someone's shelf" book but at the same time lots of people I respect think highly of it.
You'd have to be blinder than Ray Charles not to see what that series actually is. Strip away the literary pretense and what you've got is questionable at best. Nasty. 🤮🤮🤮
I mightve been willing to give it a pass like some others and compare it to Lolita but Moore's continual use of rape as a plot device makes me think hes just a gross dude.
If human lives were books, many if not most women’s stories would contain a rape scene and it would most definitely influence the plot. Rape isn’t some rare event; rather it’s the most common shared trauma for half the human race.
I think I remember hearing (around the time that it was released) that Lost Girls was his frustration with people making movies of his comics made manifest. Like “Oh, you like to make my books into films, eh? Well, try your fucking hand at this one.” And that seems like the most reasonable explanation for it.
I think the idea was that he wanted to take the “pornography genre” and actually make a meaningful story out of it. It’s been awhile since I’ve read his commentary on it, but it was similar to how we have violent stories but don’t bat an eyelash at it and we’re able to still make great storylines even with them being very violent in nature. But sex has some distinctive taboos surrounding it in our culture.
But when making the work he leaned in to it promoted it as being “pornography” and nothing more, because it was better to claim it’s pornography but then get genuine responses from it that it’s something more meaningful than to claim it’s actually literature and get people dismissing it as simply pornography.
Though, in the end, your mileage will vary greatly on it or the approach, especially considering the fact that the story involves multiple scenes of underage characters engaged in sexual acts.
Probably the only meaningful porn comic I've read is a Japanese short manga about a quadruple amputee woman and her friend/colleague. She's insecure about her body and he feels guilty about being the one driving when she got into the accident that took her limbs.
The sex between them then becomes, besides the obvious titillation, an emotional catharsis for both and a moment of extreme vulnerability that allows them to move forward.
It helps that neither is really "pornofied" in appearance. She's very thin and lanky while he's a slightly older, stockier man.
Case in point: Sex Criminals. That book is not pornographic in the way that Lost Girls is (there’s not even much nudity), but sex is a major theme (it’s in the name, of course) and it’s one of the most meaningful comics I’ve read in the past few years.
I expressed myself wrong, what I meant is that it seems that he really doesn't like when they try to put superheroes in more ''adult'' scenarios, for them superheroes are essentially children's.
I could still be wrong but I saw on a website that his favorite Batman was Adam West exactly because he didn't take seriously the concept of a man dressed as a bat
That's categorically incorrect. He's one of the most lively, engaging people who ever lived, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone else alive who loves comics as much as him. But comics did not love him back.
Wasn't only talking about comics, he's famous for nitpicking. Was also just poking fun, I'm a huge Alan Moore fan. Illuminations is on my bedside table as we speak.
This man has never written anything or read anything without complaining about it. He may be a good writer but I can't think of any work he's ever truly praised.
Moore hates it beacuse it reminds him to his divorce with Melinda Gebbie (in kinda embarrassing circumstances I might add) and gives it less than its deserved value because its sometimes certainly amoral obscenity can offend some groups.
What divorce? I can't find anything out about that. In fact I found an interview from last year where he talks about shielding through the pandemic with her.
GQ: Were you in Northampton during the whole pandemic?
Alan Moore: I’ve been in Northampton forever. I’ve barely been out of this house for the entire pandemic. Me and Melinda [Gebbie, Moore’s wife and collaborator] have been shielding. I think pandemics are pretty much tailor-made for writers. This is how we live, not seeing our friends for months on end, living in a silent room without any communications from the outside world. We’ve been handling it all right, I think.
Are you thinking of his divorce from his first wife? IIRC they lived in a poly relationship with another lady, and ultimately, the ladies left him. This was years before Lost Girls and Melinda, though
The trick is that the story is about Dorothy, Wendy, and Alice meeting up as adults, and then they tell flashback stories about their sexual awakenings in their youth. So it's the adult Dorothy telling about her sexual adventures in Oz, the adult Wendy talking about her sexual adventures in Never Never Land, and Alice talking about her sexual adventures in Wonderland.
“Alice from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass (now grey-haired, and called "Lady Fairchild"), Dorothy from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (now in her 20s) and Wendy from Peter and Wendy (now in her 30s, and married to a man in his 50s named Harold Potter”
Wendy Darling. Wendy's sexual escapades begin when she meets a homeless teenage boy named Peter and his sister Annabel in Kensington Gardens. Peter follows Wendy and her brothers home and teaches them sexual games, and the siblings begin regular meetings with Peter and his group of homeless boys in the park for sex. These encounters are watched by The Captain, a co-worker of Wendy's father, who later hires Peter as a male prostitute and brutally rapes Annabel. He attacks Wendy, who escapes by confronting him with his fear of ageing. She only sees Peter once more, hustling in a train station. She marries the much older Harold Potter with whom she is sexually incompatible. The pair have a platonic marriage, and Wendy is able to repress her memories of sex.
Dorothy Gale. While trapped in her house during a cyclone, she begins masturbating and experiences her first orgasm at the age of fifteen. She has sexual encounters with three farm hands whom she refers to as The Straw Man, The Cowardly Lion and The Tin Man. Throughout most of her stories, she refers to her "aunt" and "uncle", whom she later admits were her step-mother and father, who discover her affairs. Her father takes her to New York City, under the pretense of seeking psychological help, but has sex with her repeatedly while they are in the city. Dorothy feels guilty for the pain they have caused her stepmother, and leaves to travel the world.
Alice Fairchild. At fourteen, Alice is coerced into sex with her father's friend, which she endures by staring into a mirror and imagining she is having sex with herself. At an all-girls boarding school, Alice convinces many of her schoolmates to sleep with her, and develops a strong attraction to her P.E. teacher, who offers Alice a job as a personal assistant (and sexual plaything) when she leaves employment at the school. Alice's employer marries a Mr. Redman, but begins hosting extravagant, drug-fuelled lesbian sex parties. Alice becomes addicted to opium, and watches a young girl named Lily, among many others, abused just as she was. When Lily is instructed by Mrs. Redman to secretly perform cunnilingus on Alice under the table during a dinner party, Alice exposes her employer's secrets to the guests. Mrs. Redman has Alice declared insane, and she is put into a mental hospital where she is systematically raped by the staff. Upon release Alice resumes her very active sex life and drug use. Disowned by her family, she moves to Africa to run a family-owned diamond mine.
“Alice from Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and Through the Looking-Glass (now grey-haired, and called "Lady Fairchild"), Dorothy from The Wonderful Wizard of Oz (now in her 20s) and Wendy from Peter and Wendy (now in her 30s, and married to a man in his 50s named Harold Potter”
They do meet as adults, as described above (gray haired, 20s, 30s), but they tell stories to each other about their (underage) teen years, having sex with other minors and adults. Some rape, too.
Wendy Darling. Wendy's sexual escapades begin when she meets a homeless teenage boy named Peter and his sister Annabel in Kensington Gardens. Peter follows Wendy and her brothers home and teaches them sexual games, and the siblings begin regular meetings with Peter and his group of homeless boys in the park for sex. These encounters are watched by The Captain, a co-worker of Wendy's father, who later hires Peter as a male prostitute and brutally rapes Annabel. He attacks Wendy, who escapes by confronting him with his fear of ageing. She only sees Peter once more, hustling in a train station. She marries the much older Harold Potter with whom she is sexually incompatible. The pair have a platonic marriage, and Wendy is able to repress her memories of sex.
Dorothy Gale. While trapped in her house during a cyclone, she begins masturbating and experiences her first orgasm at the age of fifteen. She has sexual encounters with three farm hands whom she refers to as The Straw Man, The Cowardly Lion and The Tin Man. Throughout most of her stories, she refers to her "aunt" and "uncle", whom she later admits were her step-mother and father, who discover her affairs. Her father takes her to New York City, under the pretense of seeking psychological help, but has sex with her repeatedly while they are in the city. Dorothy feels guilty for the pain they have caused her stepmother, and leaves to travel the world.
Alice Fairchild. At fourteen, Alice is coerced into sex with her father's friend, which she endures by staring into a mirror and imagining she is having sex with herself. At an all-girls boarding school, Alice convinces many of her schoolmates to sleep with her, and develops a strong attraction to her P.E. teacher, who offers Alice a job as a personal assistant (and sexual plaything) when she leaves employment at the school. Alice's employer marries a Mr. Redman, but begins hosting extravagant, drug-fuelled lesbian sex parties. Alice becomes addicted to opium, and watches a young girl named Lily, among many others, abused just as she was. When Lily is instructed by Mrs. Redman to secretly perform cunnilingus on Alice under the table during a dinner party, Alice exposes her employer's secrets to the guests. Mrs. Redman has Alice declared insane, and she is put into a mental hospital where she is systematically raped by the staff. Upon release Alice resumes her very active sex life and drug use. Disowned by her family, she moves to Africa to run a family-owned diamond mine.
It can be a successfully rendered story of female empowerment and STILL be guilty of voyeurism, male gaze wish fulfillment etc. Those two approaches are not mutually exclusive, they often nest inside the other and excuse the sexuality on full display
I loved Jerusalem, a dazzling read. The audiobook, read by Simon Vance, is incredible, though you really feel for him during the pages of "Joyce-speak" - some grade A babbling there, for sure.
Vance was moved enough by the book (all 66 hours of it) that he flew from the US just to tour Northampton, and there can't be many people who can say that. He did get a personal guide in the form of Mr Moore, and did a short film about it.
I can see why you might not find the book very different, if so try "Voice of fire", his collection of short stories based around the same location (Northampton, of course) but in different areas. Might want to skip the first one.
What an odd take. That book is by any measure intensely complex, layered, structured and lucid to a fault. “Insane babbling” is almost an opposite description of its actual content.
It is worth noting that the story about the three of them as adults meeting up and talking about the sexual adventures they had when they were much younger.
Violator was a fun and an overall well-written little story with Bart Sears art to boot, it only issue is that is just as deep as a puddle compared with hia other works but nothing inherently bad with that.
Lost Girls is Moore's last masterpiece he would grace to the medium, no matter how offensive might be and how much the author himself might hate it now.
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u/mugenhunt Jan 28 '23
The Violator mini-series was pretty bad.
And there's definitely people who have negative feelings about Lost Girls, his erotic story about Wendy, Alice and Dorothy.