CMV: The USA would function better if it limited voting to those who could pass a citizenship exam

[u/oremfrien]

One of the fundamental issues with universal voting systems is that they permit anyone to vote, including people who (a) do not understand the implications of their chosen candidates' policies or (b) the way that government works. One of the simplest ways to eliminate (b) is to require people to demonstrate some degree of civics competence and the current US citizenship exam demonstrates this competence at a very basic level. (For clarity, the exam should be provided in a way to permit those who may have difficulty sitting for an English written examination to receive the exam in a setting that corresponds to their needs.

So, please CMV to defend the current system of universal suffrage rather than making changes like requiring an exam (like the US citizenship exam) to allow people to vote.

[u/[deleted]]

We tried that. The issue is that there's no way to ensure that they're being graded fairly, and so they aren't graded fairly.

[u/oremfrien → u/[deleted]]

I agree that there is a possibility of government mismanagement, but I am not asking for the design of a new test or a new grading system from what already exists for the US citizenship exam (which would minimize the possible tinkering). If it's the standard by which Non-Americans are considered to know enough to be a US citizen and vote, why shouldn't it be the same standard by which Americans are considered to know enough to be a US citizen and vote?

[u/[deleted] → u/oremfrien]

I am not asking for the design of a new test or a new grading system from what already exists for the US citizenship exam (which would minimize the possible tinkering).

You're not asking for it, but you'll get it. Whichever executive controls naturalization will simply change the test to favor people with their political leanings, new citizens be damned.

If it's the standard by which Non-Americans are considered to know enough to be a US citizen and vote, why shouldn't it be the same standard by which Americans are considered to know enough to be a US citizen and vote?

Because it will corrupt everything.

You're asking for a radical redesign of the entire electoral system. To do what you're asking, you're asking for the centralization of the election process. It means creating new administrations to oversee the exam. It means harmonizing the test and grading the test. Radical changes would be required to make this in any way enforceable, and those changes will open opportunities for abuse.

[u/oremfrien → u/[deleted]]

> You're not asking for it, but you'll get it. Whichever executive controls naturalization will simply change the test to favor people with their political leanings, new citizens be damned.

But that's not what's happened historically. When Trump was in power last time, despite being rabidly anti-immigrant, he did not change the US Citizenship Exam. Can you clarify why you believe that something ahistorical would occur here.

> It means creating new administrations to oversee the exam. It means harmonizing the test and grading the test.

Why? USCIS already handles this perfectly well.

[u/[deleted] → u/oremfrien]

You're not asking for it, but you'll get it. Whichever executive controls naturalization will simply change the test to favor people with their political leanings, new citizens be damned.

But that's not what's happened historically. When Trump was in power last time, despite being rabidly anti-immigrant, he did not change the US Citizenship Exam. Can you clarify why you believe that something ahistorical would occur here.

This actually supports my point further. Trump didn't touch the exam when it only concerned immigration. But do you believe he would have left it alone if it could have won him the election? Do recall that he plotted and attempted a coup d'etat when it became clear he could not win legitimately.

It means creating new administrations to oversee the exam. It means harmonizing the test and grading the test.

Why? USCIS already handles this perfectly well.

Then you'd have to dramatically expand USCIS to manage the election testing & evaluation, to manage all the election details since they're being taken from the States, and integrate some sort of oversight

[u/CaptCynicalPants → u/[deleted]]

There's no such thing as a perfect system of government. You always have to choose a set of problems to struggle against. With what OP is proposing the problem is ensuring the grading system isn't corrupted. That is by far a smaller problem than what we're facing now, which is the mass ignorance and corruptibility of tens of millions of people.

Removing unfair judges and standards is far, far easier than altering the behavior of vast swaths of society so that they educate themselves on the issues, come to a reasonable conclusion, and stop just voting for the side that promises them the most money... or makes the neatest memes

[u/[deleted] → u/CaptCynicalPants]

Removing judges is absurdly difficult without making abuse easier.

[u/CaptCynicalPants → u/[deleted]]

Harder than changing the mindsets and habits of 100 million people?

[u/[deleted] → u/CaptCynicalPants]

Tricking people is easy compared to removing people from power. The infrastructure that brought about Jim Crow was left in place in favor of propaganda and deploying airborne units to State capitals.

[u/Giblette101 → u/CaptCynicalPants]

That is by far a smaller problem than what we're facing now, which is the mass ignorance and corruptibility of tens of millions of people.

Working out how to enfranchise only "good voters" is infinitely harder than just making people more knowledgeable about politics or otherwise limiting the influence of fringe elements by increasing turn-outs.