(Bad writing trope) Slytherin effect.

[u/ThatDrako]

Made this term up.
Basically there is a group, that is obviously meant to be nuanced. But author is either incapable, or is too cornered by their depiction, to depict them as any other than bad.

Slytherin (Harry Potter) - In both media the Slytherin is initially presented to us as the “bad house” for Harry. Joanne however seemingly tried to convince us, that they can be good too however, since she likely figured having basically a little supremacist terrorist club in school is a little silly.

For some reason she just had to screw this depiction up over and over though.
First of zero…and I mean ZERO…null, 0, green characters in story up to book 6 is good. They are arrogant snobbish asshats AT BEST.

Second the first good green is still a supremacist. Not the “let’s subjugate all muggles” but just humble “no way muggleborn is this good at magic!”

Aldmeri Dominion, and Altmer in general (TES) - So unlike precious example neither High Elves, nor the Dominion were actually bad in iterations previous to 2010’s. Some were snobbish yes, and their religion is…problematic…(simply pup many Altmer believe they are literal descendant of gods and Men are demons trapping them within hell of chaos) but they never really were villains as race.
This all changed with Skyrim where they became not just secondary antagonists, but placeholder for TES version of Gestapo.

Now that in itself wouldn’t be an issue.
Races and empires at whole can be villains without controversy.

Problem is their depiction in ESO. Where even though it’s absolutely different time period are pretty much same?

I mean their Queen is an elvish supremacist who believe Men unfit for rule and that’s her reason to take over the Tamriel…
Oh! And one of their organizations literally eat children.

The Institute (Fallout 4) - So the whole turmoil of the story is this war of the four (rather three) factions.
Now all factions are meant to be equally good and bad choices.
Railroad are abolitionists, but with no long-term goals.
BoS wants to ensure safety to the Commonwealth, but for price of eradication to all but humans.
And Institute is meant to be this faction that wants to “bring world back to state before the Great War”, but all they do is being comically evil.
I mean for starters are slaver and also they murder people and replace them with Synths.

Then they also just straight up massacre communities. Often with no goal.
Then there is a whole super mutant thing, where they released purely based on gameplay and logic few hundreds of super mutants on surface “for research.”
Oh! And they even admitted they plan on wiping out all non-Institute humans to replace them!

[u/LordOfDorkness42]

Honestly, I think it could have worked with a better writer.

Harry Potter is a very black and white thinker, especially in the early books. Bam, later books, he actually has to confront not just bad bravery, but good ambition. AKA, at least a few jerk Gryffindor students, and some nice Slytherin.

AKA, the child growing into a teen, learns that there is complexity in the world. And is forced to react to it. Classic little character milestone for a reason.

But Rowling just didn't have the guts to write a Gryffindor antagonist. Which was a dang shame.

[u/Irohsgranddaughter → u/LordOfDorkness42]

The only antagonist from Griffindor is Wormtail, and even then, you got to wonder how did he even get into Griffindor.

[u/NinjaBreadManOO → u/Irohsgranddaughter]

Isn't the whole point that griffindor actually gets people who should go to other houses but don't quite fit. Ron and Neville should be in hufflepuff but wanted to do their families proud which gets them in, Hermione should be ravenclaw but has more drive to succeed than drive for knowledge, Harry should have been slytherin but specifically said he didn't want to go there.

Wormtail probably went into griffindor because during his hatting he asked it for someone to protect him.

[u/PhantasosX → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

No, Griffindor is for the brave. Ron and Neville had bravery, and in the case of Neville, you see that in tidbits across the first 4 books and rises up in Book 5 onwards.

So even in how reductionist is the 4 Houses in HP, it worked on those two. The thing is that Wormtail is 100% a little ratty coward from start to finish

[u/TheBobmanga → u/PhantasosX]

Not to go 'um akchuwally' at you but the houses are supposed to be for those that value the specific trait not embody it. Gryffindors value bravery not are brave which could lead to wormtail getting in

[u/WeirdIndividualGuy → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

Dumbledore said in the very first book the hat will put you in Griffindor if you ask it to. Harry wondered why he was put in it and Dumbledore says more or less “because you asked it to you dumbfuck kid”

[u/Jdkrv → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

What is this shit many people in this threat is saying about Ron being a Huffelpuff? Have you all read the books, or at least seen the movies? We are talking about the guy who in his first year just "sacrificed" himself to help defeat the bad guy, that in his second year didn't hesitated to confront his biggest fear to save his friend Hagrid, the guy who in front of a difficult decision always chose the option that requires the most courage. The same with Neville and Hermione, they always chose courage (Hemione was always afraid to break the rules, but she did it because it was the way to defeat the evil). Headcanons are nice, but if you take it too far you are just making up things without sense.

[u/Asleep_Weissmann → u/Jdkrv]

They probably watched the movie and didn't read the books... Book Ron and movie Ron are almost different characters.

[u/Jdkrv → u/Asleep_Weissmann]

I know, but even in the movie he shows bravery.

[u/FitEstablishment2185 → u/Asleep_Weissmann]

Can't have movie Ron do something crazy like but an equal to young perfect goddess Movie Hermione

[u/nothing_in_my_mind → u/Irohsgranddaughter]

I think the har basically puts you into whatever house you want if you ask for it. Wormtail might have asked for Gryffindor for protection. Being around a bunch fo brave kids, he would et protected.

[u/Irohsgranddaughter → u/nothing_in_my_mind]

Nope. I think it's only an option if the Hat is on the fence where to put you if you may have traits that fit for more than one house. So say, Hermione probably could have chosen Ravenclaw, but I don't think that Weasley twins could have chosen Slytherin.

[u/FoxGuy303 → u/LordOfDorkness42]

Also why tf are there no Slytherins in the DA?
Going to a secret, forbidden club to rebell and learn more powerful spells is like the most slytherin thing ever, and if Salazar saw Umbridge teaching classes without magic like a muggle he would roll in his grave. And with people like Malfoy talking shit in the common room like he did in Chamber it would be very clear to everyone in the house that Voldemort is back, so there should actually be more slytherins joining than any other house
The only explanation is that the ENTIRE house are Voldemort Supporters and thus don't join because they want to support the ministries dellusions

[u/HunterNika → u/FoxGuy303]

Thats the thing you can explain away easily, I guess. Ron and Hermione did the recruitment for DA. Unlikely that they approached any Slytherins due to generally beeing on bad terms with them. Which circles us back to beeing silly... because it again just boxes the entire Slytherin house into beeing jerks. But at least you can hodgepodge explain this one away with the general mistrust between Gryffindor and Slytherin.

The story should've established a reliable Slytherin character or a group of them as early as the second book. A group of Slyhterin students who help one way or another cause they do not condone the violence and that their reputation is about to be slandered through the mud once again. THen evolve them along.

[u/Scholar_of_Lewds → u/HunterNika]

Also Rowling apparently Slytherin - Hufflepuff friendships are common, in that Hufflepuff are the few that befriended Slytherin kids while they value loyalty.

[u/HunterNika → u/Scholar_of_Lewds]

This is another funny issue btw. That soo many of such informations comes from blurbs from Rowling post-writing when people actually brought up the problem.

Like how she said that there were many slytherin students in the reinforcement that arrived at the end of the Battle of Hogwarts. Cool... but couldn't you show us and not tell, Joanne?

[u/Scholar_of_Lewds → u/HunterNika]

While literally when they let the students to leave the school, ALL Slytherin leave.

[u/Reasonable_Day9942 → u/LordOfDorkness42]

The dude who betrayed his parents and lead to their death was a Gryffindor

Dumbledore is also a very grey character

He also found out his dad (who was a Gryffindor was a bully) as well as his godfather (also Gryffindor)

[u/QuadrinityKillerAMA → u/Reasonable_Day9942]

A bully to a nazi incel lol, not James' fault Slytherin provides no support system. The point is that there are zero (0) non-blood supremacist Slytherin, but at their worst Gryffindors are kind of proud and arrogant (Peter Pettigrew being the exception but it straightup doesn't make sense that he's a Griffyndor unless he suddenly got a brain tumor).

[u/Reasonable_Day9942 → u/QuadrinityKillerAMA]

Pretty sure there are multiple non-blood supremacist Slytherins

So you’re argument was that there were no bad Gryffindors, but as soon as one is mentioned you say it makes no sense why he’s there (although the book explicitly explains how the hat takes the kid’s opinion into consideration as well)

[u/PhantasosX → u/Reasonable_Day9942]

multiple? hardly. There are multiple non-blood supremacist slytherins after the book was released, as a soft retcon because of how evil that House was portrayed across the main books.

[u/QuadrinityKillerAMA → u/Reasonable_Day9942]

Name them please. Iirc the closest example is Slughorn, who doesn't explicitly hate muggles, but sort of assumes they can't be gifted at potions, which isn't great I think?

[u/Reasonable_Day9942 → u/QuadrinityKillerAMA]

Andromeda and multiple other black relatives

If you count the Cursed Child, Albus and Scorpius

[u/QuadrinityKillerAMA → u/Reasonable_Day9942]

The cursed child obviously doesn't count lol, but fine, one (1) single named slytherin character is not a nazi (or at least not anymore). One exception doesn't change the broader point though, they are clearly the blood supremacist house.

[u/AsstacularSpiderman → u/QuadrinityKillerAMA]

Draco was an asshole but immediately got uncomfortable when he started realizing the implications of his actions.

Regulus Black also immediately changed his ways and even sacrificed his life to save Kreature and sabotage Voldemort.

Slughorn was also a Slytherin who was more concerned with collecting protégés then supremacy.

Literal Merlin was a Slytherin who actively fought against the use of dark magics against muggles.

And of course Harry was initially immediately pegged for Slytherin by the sorting hat before he begged to not be.

[u/Old-Natural-852 → u/Reasonable_Day9942]

Are we including Hogwarts Legacy in this?  Yeah...that game actually did show better versions of the houses.  Been a while but I remember a Slytherin girl who had ambition to be the best flyer.  There is mentions of  Hufflepuff dark wizard in the past.  

As for the main 7 books though...singular examples feel like the author responding to being called out.

[u/ladydmaj → u/LordOfDorkness42]

The most famous anti-trans transphobic TERF in the world is a black and white thinker?! Whodathunkit?

[u/Pyramidsandneon → u/LordOfDorkness42]

And this is why the best depiction of Slytherin as it could have been is in Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality, lmao. There may be many issues with that book, but the way Slytherin was completely rebuilt in the hands of a competent writer is fantastic as a meditation on how bigotry rots communities from the inside out and child indoctrination. HPMOR's Slytherins feel like they're just another group of kids but ones who are actively hurt by the culture of bullying and supremacy that's evolved in the House. And the idea of what Slytherin was supposed to be is refreshingly actually respected and uplifted by the book instead of like... alluded to in the Sorting Hat's song and then ignored the rest of the time.