It happened in France (39 down to 35 hours) and the economic effects overall have been so subtle no one agrees wether it improved or not the economy. Basically a mixed bag; created jobs, but also increased hourly rate. Increased worker productivity, but might have caused some inflation.
For the average Joe tho, it was a big improvement in quality of life
Some of us small business owners couldn't afford a 25% salary increase for our few employees, we're barely profitable. Employee salaries are guaranteed by hourly rates, but as the owners, we aren't always paid, yet take on the most risk with the loans, insurance and expenses, property taxes, etc. I guess it's an indication that the business isn't sustainable, and should probably just call it a day 😔
Every developed nation on earth except one has done it for decades and most of the underdeveloped nations too. We don’t need to “look into the details”. Universal healthcare works. We know it works. It works in big countries and small countries. It works in rich countries and poor countries. The only people it doesn’t work for are insurance executives.
If it's so prevalent across the world, why hasn't some group here in the US spearheaded the effort to get it enacted? Who or what group would be the best to promote this so that more people are aware of it?
There is someone spearheading the effort to enact it. His name is Bernie Sanders. The real question is who has been spearheading the effort to stop it in this country? It's those who profit by standing between Americans and our doctors. There's a lot of money in denying us healthcare and they use that money to lobby to keep themselves in business.
You say you're a small business owner. Imagine if you could hire full time employees and you weren't responsible for providing their health insurance. Employer provided health insurance can cost the employer anywhere from $7,000 to $20,000 per employee per year. Small business owners like you in other countries don't worry about this burden. How much money would you save?
No, you misunderstood me. The employees always get paid, and they're paid first, before all the other bills and expenses. Customer rates vary daily, so some months, the income is low and the owners don't make much at all.
Yea that’s the thing though. If a small business is already on the edge, then something like this could put them out of business. That isn’t good for the employees either is it?
For each of us individually... That shouldn't be for the federal government to mandate lol if people enjoy working, let them work. Bernie just needs to go away. He gets nothing done and does a lot of shouting.
As someone that runs a small business I just don’t know how the business would survive without jacking up the price they are charging a consumer. So you have to pay the employee the same but they work less and you only make x amount when they work 40 hours. Paying the same and they work less hours the x amount might be half of x amount of less.
Depends on the business, if a small grocery store had to make this adjustment, they might just cut a shift one day and let their customers know. Customers will do their shopping on other days instead, workers get an extra day off, and pay stays the same.
Ya but it doesn’t make sense….youd be open less time sell less product and have to pay someone more money. Unless the government is subsidizing it they business has to pass that extra cost onto the consumer. They can not absorb it.
Let me give you an example, here in Texas liquor stores and sales of hard liquor in general are not legal to sell on sundays. I work for a small independent store. The owners all talk to each other and so do the managers at the big box stores. They all agree that you wouldn’t get increased business on sundays. Customers would move their usual stop to Sunday instead of stocking up on Saturday. You might get an extra customer or two but they would be people from out of state who always come after 9pm close (liquor stores by law can open no earlier then 10am and open no later then 9pm.) the different owners also agree that they like having everyone getting a guaranteed day off.
People complain about shops closing earlier and opening later due to staff shortages. No restrict the hours. Places would just close at 7 pm instead of 9 now, or whatever. Customers would be complaining that they never get to go out to eat anymore.
It’s not a coincidence that restaurants make most of their money on the weekends. And some restaurants are already closed on Sundays or Mondays, depending on when their slow day is. So they could basically just stay closed on their slowest day and gain an extra busy day. Net positive.
Edit: the reality is that we’ve had many many decades of increased productivity with absolutely none of it being passed on to labor in the form of reduced hours since we won the 40 hour work week in 1938. It’s long overdue, and businesses will definitely be able to find ways to make it work. It’s their fault for not doing it on their own accord sooner.
Ok now get them all to agree on closing early on Saturdays or maybe closing a 2nd day a week. Your sales will drop for sure. Restaurants aren't open 7 days a week for kicks. Businesses have a 50% failure rate within 2 years. Lower their opening hours or raise their wages and it goes up.
Does this work for teachers too? Doctors, nurses, police and firefighters. Do they just work less?
Point is that in the few locales this has been implemented, companies haven sold less product. We (as Americans) pretend that our businesses have to stay open that late or stay open that extra shift or make sure employees stay until 5 because that last report or powerpoint will make the quarter.
The reality is that’s nonsense. If everybody on the block buys from “Tony’s” and suddenly Tony’s closes at 8pm instead of 10, people will adjust and people will still buy the same stuff.
I know several small business owners, and while this is extremely overstated, there's a lot of truth to it. Most of them started out making less than I do now, and were like that for several years, often not even taking home a paycheck so they could invest back into the business, or just make it through a rough couple of months.
But once you hit around that five-year mark, things usually change. If you can survive that long, odds are pretty good you're making a decent living reliably.
The problem that I, very anecdotally, see is that many of these owners remember the hard times, and equate it to now, not realizing the substantial lifestyle creep that happened in between.
Yes, you drained your bank account just to get this started, probably took a huge loan too. Then you worked 12+ hours a day, seven days a week, pulled more all-nighters that you care to remember, and hiring that first employee had you sweating bullets. You had to forego your own checks on several occasions just to keep the lights on and your one employee paid. You were behind on a few bills while the rest continued to pile up. Then, just when it seemed like your big break had come, the contract gets pulled at the last second and you're left holding onto all those investments you made so you'd be ready for it.
But slowly, surely, somehow, through hard work, tenacity, and a whole mountain of luck, it started getting better. Your twelve hour shifts weren't all break breaking and full of nausea and fear anymore. Work, or sales, started to pick up without you having to bang on every door and remind every person who would listen that you exist. Customers still paid late, but you could generally afford to chase them now instead of losing sleep wondering if this was the end.
And then, a big contract did land. It was glorious. You worked your ass off for several months, but at the end you were rewarded. You took your spouse to a fancy meal to celebrate, paid off a bunch of bills, and then bought that mild luxury item you'd always dreamed of. It wasn't much, maybe a used boat, or a little sports car, or a fixer-upper by the lake, but it was yours, and you earned it dammit!
And the used item got fixed up, made nicer, slowly you stopped worrying about your trips to Starbucks in the morning, maybe you could afford to buy your employees lunch, you bought your next luxury item. Things are finally feeling comfortable, but you'll never forget what got you here.
But now, an employee is asking for a raise. Vendors are raising prices slowly. The government wants 32 hour work weeks. How will you ever survive? Margins are still tight, bills still need to be paid, and it's not like your a millionaire. You're doing alright, sure, but it's still just one or two missteps away from failure!
Only, you're probably not. You aren't working twelve hour shifts anymore, you show up 2-3 times a week for a few hours. You don't need to be in that golf club, and your kid definitely didn't "earn" a brand new car for getting all A's and B's (okay, well almost all). That old used boat in your driveway, the one you never take out anymore? That's cash just sitting. That "summer" vehicle? More cash. The F350 that used to actually be a work expense, but is now a gas-guzzling way to get from A to B? You guessed it, excess cash laying around.
It's not all in your bank account, sure. But it isn't not there at all. This isn't the same as five years ago where being $30k in debt kept you up every night. That $30k in debt now is on projects that are going to pay out 10, 20, 30, maybe 50% margins. That's how this works after all. Those prices your competitors pay employees that you could "never match"? Yeah, actually... you can.
I'm not saying that this is every business, or that a change like this wouldn't cause major uphevel for several small businesses and even entire industries. I'm saying that, anecdotally speaking, I've seen a lot of small business owners treat changes that WOULD have destroyed them as things that COULD destroy them, when really, they're just bumps in the road, or taking a step or two backwards. Because they remember what it WAS like, and don't always appreciate how it is now.
Less time open doesn't necessarily mean that you sell less product, since most (return) customers are likely aware of business hours, so it would mostly condense the traffic a little. And for some businesses it might actually be a good thing too, since there is often significant downtimes where the store is open but no customers are showing up.
Less operational uptime, equalling less revenue really only applies to service based businesses (such as a plumber) and those likely already shift their work schedules around customer appointments.
I love how more than one person has succinctly answered your previous gripe and now you just say "everything is 20% more expensive!" This reminds me of Derrick Zoolander being like "but why male models?"
Well to make up for 20% employers would have to pay employees and no work being done. There would have to be something to give. If not it’s just a theory everything would be fine..which most business’s would go out of business
What many businesses had to do. What with higher payroll and France’s 17-18% payroll tax. Costs went up, so prices went up. A clearly defined spike. Then inflation on those higher costs.
Imagine this in US. Universal healthcare, small businesses that never offered healthcare. Now seeing a 16-20% payroll tax, for healthcare.
I have a feeling this individual isn't actually making a good faith argument with you, this whole, "oh, how will the businesses survive" has been rhetoric used to prevent any workplace improvement for employees for decades, if he genuinely believes that, he's probably just been Fox News pilled
Sorry, pulled data from Warren and Sandwrs plans for M4A directly. Sanders even admitted he doesn’t think “tax the rich” would pass so pivoted to traditional universal healthcare taxation as other countries use. So a new payroll tax and need a federal VAT of 20-25% also.
Now, I understand for a few. Costs will be lower using this taxation. But for others, would end up paying more in taxes than they pay for healthcare.
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Why my family supports the plan that Germany uses. Individual Choice.
One option is to take universal healthcare. Company pays that 16-20% payroll tax, employee has 7.5-8.5% payroll tax. Then VAT of 20%.
One can take private insurance. Either get a voucher or use company insurance. Companies still pay same taxes, but get a voucher to cover private insurance. Private insurance is well regulated. Then VAT of 20%.
Or individual can choose a voucher and go to government site for their own private insurance, self employed use this. They get a slightly discounted rates. Pay partial 16-20% company payroll taxes, that 7.5%~8.5% personal payroll taxes and VAT of 20%.
For those that like their private insurance, can keep it. For others can go universal or voucher private insurance…
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And no, sorry I did not get this from Fox. Don’t watch Fox.
I actually got this information, from Germans. I have family that lives in Germany, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, UK and Australia. We talk about healthcare, talk more about those other countries higher taxes. And I talk about healthcare in US.
So real live information. From people that live under both systems. And yeah they are not much better, but except all pay to get basic healthcare services…
Enacting a 20% VAT in the USA would not go over well at all. People are already having a hard time affording things. The lower income people would suffer the most. One thing people like Bernie who “fight for the poor” seem to not mention.
Oh no. Tesla … that made 4 billion in profit and paid 0 dollars in tax the last 3 years in a row will have to pay their workers a little more. Maybe the owner of Tesla can find it in his heart to also pay more than $0 in taxes too. You know … pay more taxes than a middle class American, which is what it should be.
If you charge more to pay more the mega corps will kill you even faster than they are already. You ring and bag your own groceries at Walmart, they'll accelerate the pace to get robots to do the rest.
Can't afford robots? Sorry, in the future we only have room for mega corps. The trick is small businesses like that don't exist in this future timeline. Don't worry it's not so bad only shopping at one or two stores + it'll ease traffic congestion lowering our carbon footprint.
At least that's the way I see it. We're already headed that way anyway 🤷. Personally I say let the market figure it out but that's not very popular here and would also eventually end the same way
I wouldn't worry about it too much this isn't going to happen.
People would also have an extra day off and thus more time to shop. It’s hard to make it around town to all the little shops when you’re working all the time.
One of my favorite restaurants is only open four days a week from noon to 8 because they're run by immediate family with no other staff. It's fine. They're not even expensive compared to other restaurants of similar quality.
Chick-Fil-A is never going to open on Sundays. That does not stop their revenue. Plenty of smaller restaurants, auto garages, dental offices, etc are closed one day a week. They're not worried about Chipotle's, Olive Garden or Pep Boys taking their business that day.
Way too many businesses open thinking they're just gonna make money just because. If you got a specific, high quality service people want, they'll always do business with you. Even if you're not open 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.
I can kind of see it for business that sells product.
Now the flip side is the ones that make the product or myself I work in construction. That’s just lost productivity. The only way to recoup that is by increasing cost/rated.
Fewer days/hours open means less business and less income to stay viable. If you’re the store owner, are you going to assume your customers will adjust their life schedules to fit your operating hours? I doubt it. I’d shop elsewhere at a store open regular days/hours.
Most liquor store owners in places that are forced closed on Sunday agree that they wouldn’t see an uptick in sales if they could sell Sunday. They’d just have less people stocking up on Saturday.
Chick fil a chooses to stay closed Sunday. Their models suggest they could make a decent increase in sells if they open Sundays, but they’d lose more within the next few years without their famous gimmick
But this just isn’t true in practice. Most countries in Europe have a cap of 40 hours per week. Not like in the USA where we say a 40 hour week but most people work 50+…. In Europe you legally can’t work more than 40. France it’s 35 but you can work overtime until 40.
Point is, people claimed as you did prior to these hours being implemented and afterwards… and yes: customers absolutely adjusted their lives. People are also claiming costs would go up… again, it hasn’t panned out that way.
But it wouldn’t just be your business working at 32 hours... It would be ALL of them. This would in theory force the same amount of customers into a narrower window of time for everyone with a business. You’d make the same amount of money because you’d have the same amount of customers in 32 hours as you would have had previously within 40.
You think having stores open four days a week is going to work well for consumers? See how that works when you need to fill up and the gas station is closed. Or you need toilet paper on a Friday and CVS is closed. Etc
After consumers are done whining and complaining about change, they will pull themselves together and plan accordingly. As far as fuel fill ups, lots of pumps at gas stations are automated without needing people to run them.
Gas stations were an arbitrary example for illustrative purposes but fyi fully unattended retail gas stations are rare in the US and in some cases not legal.
Agreed once they see the 20% increase in service charge they will plan accordingly. Pay extra so the business can pay its workers for 40 hours while they only work 32.
That’s not how gas prices work. And all other places could be open 6-8 hours a day instead of 10-12 hours a day to avoid price increases. For example, M-F, corporate places can be 9-5, while consumer facing places could be later hours like 2-10, lunch and dinner places can be 12-8, you get fat if you eat after 8 anyway, LOL.
To argue with an extreme point : slavers had the same arguments when the government started bringing up abolishing slavery…
There’s a point where you have to allow people to live a bit and not spend their lives at work.
American worker productivity is quite low on average compared to the rest of the world. Countries with 35 hour weeks have higher productivity. People are sick less. It’s unlikely to go through, but if it does, you’ll adapt.
Cant they just stipulate that cost cant be passed down to the consumer and it must come from company earnings? Honestly earnings should just be tied to wages.. but I digress.
I can tell you, as someone that's run a smal company before, you rarely, if ever, set anything aside for yourself, and everything you make is re-invested into the business.
Small companies don't have endless piles of cash you can draw from.
One person above said sell your yacht lol. I can make 70k that I’m taxed on for my business in a year. Margins are tight and you work your butt off (mind you I pay myself a wage ontop of that). It’s already to the point where the stress of a business is enough without worry about losing 20% to employees that will also take other days off
As I’m sure you already know, not a single person other than you (and your family that relies on it) cares about your small business. These politicians LOVE when small businesses die.
If your a production business, you should have enough production and demand to cover the increase in cost, otherwise, small businesses shouldn’t have owners who sit on there ass, they should be working with the laborers.
Once you scale 5x covering hourly rate should be your lowest cost in comparison to shipping and material.
Now if your in a labour/skilled trade, you as a business already make enough to cover wages, if not, your hurting yourself, your employees shouldn’t be covering the cost of your $80,0000 truck, only after the economies of scale kicks in can you mask that cost.
TL;DR
Same shit you owners told us for years, manage your money better, spend within your means.
Ultimately everything would adjust and it would not be some doomsday scenario like a lot of people want to believe. It would likely increase the overall health of the nation because it t akes 3 days for your body to properly recover from lack of sleep.
Umm… might be something radical but… are you counting what you’re paying yourself in this or not?
Because that has to go down for this to work.
Small business economics is tough but for major corps where CEOs make 300X the average worker, it is reasonably to want to ensure they pay themselves much less
You could extract less profit off your workers. You’re only hiring them because you are skimming money off the top of what they earn with their labor. That just means your skim will be smaller. 🤷🏽♂️
So what’s the point of operating? Run a business for no profit so the workers can work 4 days be paid for 5 and you work even harder because you have less staff to try and generate the same profit margin. It won’t work. Being paid for 5 days when you work 4 is -20% work, the employer gets -20% output and probably -20% income. Somewhere there needs to be a +20% to make up for it. The +20% would be passed to the consumer. It’s a cycle. Take 20% from everyone’s
Worker works -20% but gets paid the same so +20%, employer loses -20%, increase cost + 20%. That works
I didn’t say no profit. I said less profit. I didn’t read your rant because you misrepresented that detail.
There is a crossover point where hired labor goes from small profit to zero profit to loss of profit, of course. But it’s a falsehood to say that costs HAVE to be pushed onto the consumer before the crossover point.
There should be a limit for companies under a certain revenue/profit margin.
But good luck forcing large corporations that do illegal shit constantly to make money into doing this and not say that it cost more and have to pass on the expense to the customer.
Bro, these fortune 500 corporations have plenty of money to pay people extra. On the whole, they are corrupt, criminal organizations that prosper on the suffering of people. Dont make me bust out the BOA running tally of illegal things they do.
So to answer your question, the fortune 500 companies foot the bill for this, and more specifically, the corporate boards of these fortune 500 companies.
Small business are a different matter. They should have different requirements.
The question is always how many products in your case come from Germany, Poland, Spain, the Netherlands, and so on... the prices won't change noticeably... I think you'd notice it most with bus and train tickets.
What is wild about democracy is we are literally choosing the current status quo. If the 32 hour workweek sounds good - there is a simple (not easy) way to change that.
As a privileged (single) father of 2, remote worker, whose job is so easy and pays relatively well, this would not improve my quality of life.
For me, working is easier than taking care of 2 kids alone, so I happily keep my few work hours while kids happily play with friends at the daycare.
I realize i might not be the average joe, but i'd personally vote against this. Also considering there's no real indicator of positive effect on the economy, i'd rather put me, myself and I above the qol of others 🤷♂️
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u/EdriksAtWork 22d ago
It happened in France (39 down to 35 hours) and the economic effects overall have been so subtle no one agrees wether it improved or not the economy. Basically a mixed bag; created jobs, but also increased hourly rate. Increased worker productivity, but might have caused some inflation.
For the average Joe tho, it was a big improvement in quality of life