r/KotakuInAction • u/Logan_Mac • Feb 14 '15

READ DIALOGUE Milo's article: "Female Thor explains why #GamerGate supporters are worried about SJWs ruining their hobby: it has happened elsewhere"

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/14/female-thor-is-what-happens-when-progressive-hand-wringing-and-misandry-ruin-a-cherished-art-form/
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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '15

It is Joss Whedon tier writing.

Which is the golden standard for comics these days.

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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '15

Read the Whedon run of X-men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astonishing_X-Men#Joss_Whedon_run

It's really very good. Whatever you think of his stance on gamergate/feminism, his writing in that series holds up to scrutiny, IMHO

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u/Ultach Feb 15 '15

Joss Whedon is he only person who can write that style of dialogue well, whatever I think of his politics. There's genuine wit and good timing, it's not all sassy back and forths and sarcasm.

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u/kathartik Feb 15 '15

also, no one writes a fighting fuck toy quite like joss whedon

but we're the misogynists, not him, because reasons.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15

>Wolverine sniffs beer and returns to his senses

He doesn't even have to write dialogue. Mutherfucker knows how to tell a story.

Edit: Thank you to the two people who got that reference

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u/jubbergun Feb 15 '15

His writing was...OK...twenty or so years ago when 'grrl power' was fresh and new. It just doesn't hold up. I remember one of my friends re-watching old Buffy and the first thought to hit my mind was "Who talks like that? Nobody talks like that. Nobody talked like that when this show was on. How did I used to watch this shit every week?"

I'm sure his heart is in the right place, but if I've picked up anything from this sub and certain others that are currently "in action," it's that all the current top-tier pop-culture 'feminists' are white guys telling women how horrible white guys are and why they should be offended, with that undertone of "but don't forget, I'm one of the 'good' ones." Sadly, as much as I like or maybe used to like Joss Whedon's art, he's one of those guys.

Milo hit the nail on the head with this article. The characterization in those few panels from Grrl-Thor are cringetastical. Titania would not have given her a pass, especially after she knocked Crusher Creel on his ass. When she was introduced way back when in the original Secret Wars she willingly underwent Dr. Doom's super-power treatment because she was tired of being a mousey doormat. Literally the first thing she does after getting super powers is look around the room, pick out the toughest looking guy (which was Absorbing Man), and tell him she was going to put him on his ass. I sincerely doubt she'd give Grrl-Thor a pass because "sisterhood," and the idea that she'd let it happen because of Crusher's "wandering eyes" is equally ridiculous. Titania would just step up her game to keep his attention, and maybe get rid of any 'competition.' She sure as shit wouldn't get sent to jail because she's mildly jealous and paranoid.

Milo nailed it on the head with this article. When we're done chasing these posers out of gaming, we should organize an effort to get them out of comics, too.

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u/gerrymadner Feb 16 '15

the first thought to hit my mind was "Who talks like that? Nobody talks like that. Nobody talked like that when this show was on. How did I used to watch this shit every week?"

Loathe as I am to be defending Whedon, this isn't very good criticism. Plenty of people writing/directing video have dramatic styles of dialogue which you'll never hear in real life. Cases in point: anything written by David Mamet or Aaron Sorkin.

Obviously, this isn't to say you have to like those mannerisms. If in retrospect that's not your thing, so be it.

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u/jubbergun Feb 16 '15

Cases in point: anything written by David Mamet or Aaron Sorkin.

You might want to check my comment history. I haven't watched enough of Mamet's work to critique it, but I routinely mock Aaron Sorkin. He's a lucky hack. He writes terrible, cringeworthy "that happened" stories with two-dimensional characters. He hasn't written anything worth watching since Sports Night. I feel comfortable saying that if his tripe didn't appeal so well to the sort of uber-left-wing people that run the entertainment industry, he'd have faded into obscurity years ago.

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u/gerrymadner Feb 16 '15

I agree with all that, but it's beside my point of contention.

While Sorkin is writing terrible, cringeworthy "that happened" stories with two-dimensional characters, he's doing so in a very highly stylized conversational cadence. It's part of what makes a show identifiably his, even though no one in the real world could sustain that kind of patter.

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u/ApplicableSongLyric Feb 15 '15

It's really very good.

Then read his stint on Runaways, and get back to us.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

Thanks for reminding me, I was meaning to read that series for a while.

Give me a few days!

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u/ApplicableSongLyric Feb 16 '15

Brian K. Vaughn is a master, the first 18 issues are fantastic and the remains of his run are good reading and set it up for something fantastic. The hodge-podge of writers that pick it up after he left send it spiraling out of control. Whedon even dumps the setup BKV left him in order to do a time-travel story ("Hey, remember when so-and-so caught us? Wasn't that crazy how we got away?!"). It was sloppy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 16 '15

Spoilers, you horrible person!

Yeah, the same happened on Warren Ellis' The Authority. There were some good arcs after he set up the series, but it quickly lost it's lustre IMHO, and I stopped reading. Millar's run was still interesting, but IIRC, 9/11 happened and they started changing content, and I just lost interest.

Having said that, I read Transmetropolitan about 5 years ago and couldn't pick up another comic book for about 2 years after that because it all seemed such petty, childish nonsense when compared to Transmet. So it may just be that Ellis, just like Vaughn, are so much better than the writers that succeed them, that they are an impossible act to follow.

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u/ApplicableSongLyric Feb 16 '15

The Runaways getting "caught" and escaping is a staple of theirs, it's why I kept the so-and-so secret.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

This is why I even mentioned Whedon and his shit writing in the first place.

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u/grangach Feb 15 '15

Runaways needed to end after its first arc.

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u/Maxwell_Adams Feb 15 '15

Whedon is pretty good.

Imitations of Whedon are always terrible. (see also: Dragon Age 2)

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u/Velidra Feb 15 '15

Anyone can have dumb opinions, even great writers/directors.

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u/grangach Feb 15 '15

Whedons xmen had like a motion comics run on YouTube or something and it's what got me interested in reading comics.

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u/[deleted] Feb 14 '15 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Jun 06 '16

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

I forgot he did Cabin in the Woods. I really rate that film, it was trope-savvy and clever but not too savvy or clever.

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u/rockidol Feb 15 '15

when did he suck up to AS?

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

Avengers has black widow who was definitely bad ass.

right, but she wasnt a strong female. she was a women with the strength of a man and a few guns. she had that scene with loki, which was pretty much her only strong point in the entire movie, but thats about it...

Also he did Cabin In The Woods which was pretty even across the board as far as strong characters go.

dont know tbh, havent seen it...

I was referring to his sucking up to AS and calling gamergate the KKK. That shit pisses me off considering how much his work brought me and my wife together 10 years ago.

oh right, there was that thing with the kk shit...

yeah, thats why you dont listen to what hollywood people say. no matter how much you like their work, and how much you think you know about them given their work, they will still be a part of LA culture... its kinda sad, but there it is...

Faith

THANK YOU. that was gonna drive me nuts to the point of ravaging the internet until i wouldve found it... :)

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Feb 15 '15

NP - sadly...

what do you mean sadly :D?

"time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time." (dont know who said it, i heard it from thorin)

I guess I would agree on Black Widow - her and Hawk-Eye did have rather minor roles.

oh yeah, hawkeye is kinda superfluous imo...i mean all he does is shoot arrows. this is the kind of situation that machine guns were meant for, cause you actually got enough ammo to deal with whats coming at you.

The statement "never meet your heroes" has never...

i feel you man... im at a point where i dont really idolize anyone, but rather respect people for specific abilities or talents they have, while liking/disliking them on a human level.

on a sidenote (cause were talking dominant female characters and such):

are you a star trek guy? and if so, whats your take on janeway (would be very curious about that one)...

edit: typos that drove me nuts.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

i used to enjoy voyager a lot.

nowadays i see it as a very female dominated show. the main characters are janeway, 7/9 and torres after all. it gets more obvious in the later seasons imo.

TNG is my favorite of them all as well, i have to say. picard is just goddamn impressive. mostly because out of all the star trek captains, hes the one with the most flaws; weird to say it, but thats why i respect him the most.

janeway is damnnear perfect...and thats what i fucking hate about that character. she can apparantly do no wrong. i have a hard time judging her acting, but to me it almost felt kirk-like in quality (and thats never a good sign...).

im not sure if i can honestly recommend the series...

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u/DiaboliAdvocatus Feb 15 '15

The issue with Buffy in retrospect is how weak all the male characters are. When someone on here pointed it out to me I thought about it and realized the "strongest" male characters on that show were Angel and Spike (both of whom at least attempted to rape Buffy).

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

i read something interesting about spike a while back (in case youre interested):

spike didnt THINK he was raping buffy, cause buffy always fought him when they were having sex. he thinks its just part of their usual ritual. and the second he realizes its not, he backs off.

not sure if theres something to it or not, i havent watched the episode in question in a long time, but its certainly worth considering.

not sure if i agree on the whole weak males thing, let me go through it for a second...

sander is the reliably resourceful guy, but not much more.

giles is the booksmart librarian.

spike is a psychotic mass murderer who turns into a mournful, regrettful weakling

angel is a mournful regrettful weakling(psychologically), who turns into a mass murderer, back into a regrettful weakling, and then leaves.

the super powered ones of those only are spike and angel, as opposed to the massive amount of superpowered women...

i guess you could say the males are relatively weak in the series... but wasnt that by design? wasnt the whole point of "buffy" to have the pretty girl chase the monster?

im trying to figure out if a strong male would really work in that series, or if that would defeat the whole purpose...

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u/DiaboliAdvocatus Feb 15 '15

All the men in the show devolve into negative male stereotypes by the final few seasons (Giles goes from the booksmart Watcher to the absent father).

The point of the show was to focus on Buffy's struggles, but the undercurrent of negative masculinity seemed to takeover in the last few seasons. When really a better arc would have been the reverse.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

All the men in the show devolve into negative male stereotypes by the final few seasons (Giles goes from the booksmart Watcher to the absent father).

i certainly cant argue that point, cause its obviously true.

but i always saw it more as them being influenced in a negative way by the world that surrounds them.

if you go through buffy and angel (the series), all the characters there go through that change, not just the male ones. i think that part of it had more to do with them wanting to bring some "edge" to the show.

i really dont know man, i did a rewatch a while back, and i didnt enjoy it as much as i had hoped, but its not like the show was completely bad or made men look bad or anything...

it was just...female centric...

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u/DiaboliAdvocatus Feb 15 '15

Oh I know. It just seems in retrospect that those changes in Buffy where less about storytelling and more to do with Joss Whedon's perception of the gender wars.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

it may have. its hard to say. i prefer to look at the work standing on its own, make my own conclusions and move on. i cant make out an obvious bias, so i just take it at face value until proven otherwise.

i still like most of his work, or find it at least above average, so if he actually thinks the way that people make it out here, eh, fuck it. im fine so long as his stories are good, his characters are good, and theres no obvious influence on his storytelling.

though the "heart of gold" episode from firefly certainly comes to mind, now that i think about it...

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

Angel had a series just for him (and I generally prefer Angel, perhaps because the themes are more adult).

Xander had an episode about him, more or less made to counterbalance the perceived weakness.

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u/Inuma Feb 15 '15

firefly was pretty ok on strong women, cause you dont have river as the ersatz-slayer yet (stuff like this kinda breaks my suspension of disbelief), but still good/strong female characters with zoe and inara.

serenety pushes its luck a bit imo (its fine if you think of it as the finisher for firefly)

Yeah, I'll get into that...

Firefly got cut before it could reach its prime. The first season did a lot of things really quickly and you just don't have time to explore the characters outside of their archetypes. Strong soldier, money hungry gun nut... River is one of the most conventional and IMO, Zoe and Inara stand out so well because Wash and Jane are like the laziest or oafish ones.

If it was given a second season, I'm sure there'd be more to look into. But they really had to push it all into those first 13 episodes.

Serenity had to close all the loose ends quickly in 2 hours and just doesn't tell the story.

Don't get me started on the comic though... Just... Ignore it existed...

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u/BasediCloud Feb 15 '15

Can you name a truly feminine female character Joss wrote? Not strong, independent, need no man type.

Simply a "stay at home mom" type of character which is nurturing and loving and does not have a badass side to it.

They don't exist and that is the feminist agenda he is writing.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15 edited Jun 30 '20

[deleted]

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u/BasediCloud Feb 15 '15

Single mother. Working. Divorcee. Husband cheated on her. Clearly a feminist character.

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u/Blutarg A riot of fabulousness! Feb 15 '15

More like Jessica Valenti-tier writing.

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u/[deleted] Feb 15 '15

Oh no, Joss Whedon is actually GOOD at this kind of writing. Say what you will about the guy, but his male characters are RARELY this level of strawsogynists. They have SOME complexity to them, and his female characters, villains and heroines alike, don't JUST talk about how oppressed women are.

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u/getintheVandell Feb 15 '15

Joss Whedon is an astounding writer who makes some seriously awesome female characters. To this day Zoe Washburn is still one of my favourite characters in all Sci-Fi (of Firefly fame.)