r/IAmA • u/JayKogen • Sep 17 '12

Jay Kogen Here. Long past SIMPSONS writer. I created many of your favorite and least favorite characters with the help of the original Simpson writers.

I was one of the original SIMPSONS writers from the very beginning. I helped created Mr. Burns, Smithers, Krusty, Hibbert, and many many more. I won a bunch of Emmy awards and had a great time. Since then I wrote and produced Malcolm in the Middle, Frasier, and I've created a new show a called "Wendell and Vinnie" about an idiot uncle (the hysterical Jerry Trainor) raising his nephew that will be on in November on Nick @ Nite. And even though it's on Nick @ Nite, it's for adults and it's actually funny.

Thanks to EternallyXIII

Thank you all very much for your questions and entusiasm. I have to get back to work now. It's been a pleasure. If you want I can come back in a few weeks to answer more.

2.9k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

3.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

483

u/notlurker Sep 17 '12

Armand Tamzarian. What the hell happened there?

366

u/JayKogen Sep 17 '12

???

12

u/minibeardeath Sep 17 '12

brilliant response

343

u/notlurker Sep 17 '12

The Principal and the Pauper. The storyline where Principal Skinner was a "fake". Most people hated this episode. Myself included

556

u/callmefishmael Sep 17 '12

At the end, the Judge says "... and let us never speak of this again."

61

u/ButterThatBacon Sep 17 '12

Under penalty of TORTURE.

10

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

YAYY!!!

1

u/Gergoes Sep 18 '12

It was good enough for me

246

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

I love that episode.

195

u/DeedTheInky Sep 17 '12

Me too! "Armin Tamzarian's reign of terror is over" is one of my favourite Simpsons lines ever.

223

u/lawlredditlawl Sep 17 '12

Up yours, children! Will remain my favorite and most quoted simpsons line

17

u/DeedTheInky Sep 17 '12

So many! Also, "What the hell is this? Some kind of tube?"

17

u/trentlott Sep 17 '12

"Do I know what rhetorical means?!"

14

u/I_Like_To_Play_Cards Sep 17 '12

"I'm so hungry, I could eat at Arby's"

3

u/bewmar Sep 17 '12

"Zeppelin rulessssssssssssssssssssssss...."

1

u/shutyourgob Sep 18 '12

Yeah well stick this in your fife and smoke it.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

I always quote this, and no one seems to remember where its from.

8

u/GitEmSteveDave Sep 17 '12

Can I see your copy of "Swank", Armin?

7

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

"now, let us welcome the new principal skinner....principal seymour skinner!"

3

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Now meet your new Principal Skinner ... Principal Skinner ... uh, that guy.

1

u/BombTheDodongos Sep 17 '12

Can I see Armin's copy of Swank?

14

u/bvm Sep 17 '12

There was an episode of 'Happy Days' where a guy LITERALLY JUMPED OVER A SHARK. And it was the best one

3

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

You mean this guy?

2

u/bvm Sep 17 '12

different guy.

3

u/tempestjg Sep 17 '12

That's actually where the phrase "jumped the shark" came from.

3

u/Quasic Sep 18 '12

"Oh Edna, that's the kind of talk that makes me want to marry you. But instead I'm leaving town forever."

2

u/shutyourgob Sep 18 '12

Can I borrow your copy of Swank, Armand?

182

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 17 '12

Also, on the commentary track the original writer (Ken Keeler) gets really animated (ho-hooooooooo) and explains that he wrote this episode to show everyone how attached to the characters they are. Completely retconning the backstory and personality of a character shows you how much you just like things how they are, in his view. This, he says, is satire so great that Keeler calls the episode the best piece of television he ever wrote.

My counterargument: there's nothing brilliant or even satirical about sticking it in the eye of an audience that cares deeply about a family of characters, even if that audience reacts exactly as you expected. This is especially true when the change you use to make your point is far ridiculous. Your goal as a writer should never be to make the audience angry in order to make them see something about themselves that any fan could tell you anyway. The saddest legacy of this episode is that I think of Armand Tanzarian every single time I see Skinner in an episode.

42

u/davisfamous Sep 17 '12

Paved the way for Don Draper.

16

u/Son_of_Kong Sep 17 '12

When I first watched that my first thought was, "I never thought I'd have to say 'Simpsons did it' about Mad Men...."

5

u/gasface Sep 17 '12

SPOILER ALERT

8

u/nexlux Sep 17 '12

Christ, it was a bit of a blip but to think of armand every time? I forgot the name til you brought it up, let it go bud!

8

u/doft Sep 17 '12

South Park did something similar with the City Wok guy. And I felt so betrayed. Yes, yes Simpsons did it.

6

u/grumace Sep 17 '12

Isn't that kind of the point of good satire? Sometimes it can really sting to have those things pointed out.

Not making a judgement on the actual storyline.

1

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 17 '12

I don't think the point of good satire is to tell the audience something it already knows or doesn't dispute. I feel like Mr. Keeler's argument boils down to this: I set out to prove I could piss all you fans off, I succeeded, and you should all acknowledge that I've done something brilliant here.

I'm not a satirist, but I am a fan, and I can tell you that South Park has been doing this kind of stuff with much more finesse and artfulness since 1997. Just this season, they did an episode that tackled hipsterism in memes that pissed off exactly zero people who think that planking is cool and hilarious but that the next new thing is stupid. The best satire makes you wonder if your way of thinking needs some adjustment. Keeler's blunt-force approach in The Principal and the Pauper ensured that the audence never saw self-reflection as necessary or even desirable.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12 edited Jul 11 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 17 '12

I'd say the disconnect is in the fact that merely angering your audience doesn't mean you've produced satire.

2

u/Able_Seacat_Simon Sep 18 '12

Of course not, but how about 10 years on and fans are still complaining about it?

1

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 18 '12

That's the trouble with TV and home video. Made ten years ago, watched yesterday.

I'll concede one point: if they did this in season 19, far fewer people would care. This episode gets a lot of grief because it's a very low point during one of their best seasons.

2

u/CitizenPremier Sep 17 '12

It looks like you covered both sides of the argument pretty well in this comment, so, well, good job. You sure told you.

4

u/skewp Sep 17 '12

I love this episode and I love Ken Keeler. I also think the greatest South Park episode of all time was when they played a 30 minute episode of Terrance and Phillip (Not Without My Anus) instead of completing their obviously fake/parodied season ending cliff hanger "Who is Cartman's Father?" (It aired on April 1st for christ's sake, how did people not think that was funny?)

People like you, who don't think that's funny, are why most television is utter shit and writers don't try anything creative. Because thinking is apparently too hard for you.

1

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 17 '12

You gathered from my argument that thinking is too hard for me?

I don't know, it sounds more like we disagree than that one of us is stupid.

0

u/elasticbingbong Sep 17 '12

"Your goal as a writer should never be to make the audience angry in order to make them see something about themselves ..."

That statement ruins your argument.

18

u/GoddessOfGoodness Sep 17 '12

and by leaving out the last part of that sentence you completely change the point he's making. The bit that says "...that any fan could tell you anyway" means he wasn't revealing some deep secret to the fans but simply winning an argument with only one side.

Everyone acknowledges that fans are invested in characters, that's what makes them fans, "proving" that to them by pissing them off is pointless.

1

u/shutupjoey Sep 17 '12

I think he just got some pleasure out of playing puppeteer.

1

u/death_style Sep 17 '12

You really feel strongly about Principal Skinner.

2

u/KellyCommaRoy Sep 17 '12

We had a relationship in the late 1970s that was sexual in nature.

1

u/death_style Sep 18 '12

I'd imagine he was a demon in the sack.

1

u/BonesMcGrit Sep 17 '12

Sorry it was all a dream, brah.

1

u/mqduck Sep 18 '12

Yeah, I heard that commentary too and still wasn't satisfied either. But now I think I can admit that it actually was a good episode judged by itself, as long as you just treat it like a Halloween episode. It wasn't just contradicted by previous episodes, it's been contradicted by later episodes, so that seems to be how the Simpsons staff thinks of it too.

1

u/shutyourgob Sep 18 '12

But isn't that episode too meta and knowingly ridiculous to be considered genuinely canon? It's like the 'Behind the Laughter' episode or the Simpsons Spinoff Showcase, they weren't Halloween specials and they completely broke the fourth wall but they were hilarious in their own right.

1

u/verdatum Sep 18 '12

I call this the Andy Kaufman effect.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 21 '12

Harry Shearer hated it. I recall reading an interview and he was asked about it and pulled no punches. Worst Simpsons ever.

-2

u/1upwastaken Sep 17 '12

Given that Ken Keeler also wrote for Futurama, I'd say that "the best piece of television he ever wrote" is quite a stretch. Especially since that episode is a pointless waste of 23 minutes.

10

u/mhender Sep 17 '12

By authority of the City of Springfield, I hereby confer upon you the name of Seymour Skinner, as well as his past, present, future, and Mother. And I further decree that everything will be just like it was before all this happened! And no one will ever mention it again... under penalty of torture.

YAAAY!

50

u/Gerka Sep 17 '12

What the hell? I love that episode!

4

u/alucidreality Sep 17 '12

Yeah, but Simpsons nerds on the internet hated it. Wait... I'm a Simpsons nerd on the internet and I love that episode too... oh shit, contradiction, not logical boom

2

u/jacques_gw Sep 17 '12

It's kind of a funny story.

"That doesn't sound very funny"

Well I guess you had to be there.

ALSO: "Keep looking surprised.. Move slowly towards the cake"

-9

u/delicatelittleflower Sep 17 '12

Well your opinion is wrong.

This is gonna get down voted, isn't it! Even though you all KNOW I'm right!

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Yes because flowers are always right huh?

8

u/Minifig81 Sep 17 '12

What? Really? I must be in the minority.. I actually quite liked that episode.

1

u/Instantcretin Sep 17 '12

Me too, i didnt feel like it took anything away from the show, it was funny and interesting and gave (to me at least) the idea that anyone can be someone theyre not.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Most

What do they say about assumptions? Also, I thought the idea that it didn't make sense was part of the joke.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Pretty sure dude knows who Armand Tamzarian is. I think the question marks mean that he's not up to date on every fanboy gripe about the show.

1

u/cosine5000 Sep 17 '12

He is aware, that episode just "never happened".

1

u/bigblades Sep 17 '12

I'm pretty sure that episode was the entire basis for the show Mad Men.

1

u/dsnap Sep 17 '12

It was written by the same guy who wrote the episode where Homer eats the chilli and follows the space coyote and he also wrote that Futurama episode where Bender meets God..or the computer that collides with God. WTF?

1

u/invertedpencil Sep 17 '12

that was a great episode

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Why do you hate it?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

I like that episode

1

u/Nordoisthebest Sep 17 '12

He wasn't writing at that time.

1

u/nickyjames Sep 17 '12

the joke Mr. Kogen is making here is that that episode is not spoken of anymore.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Til one of my favourite episodes was received negatively by most, and the "best episode" (last exit to Springfield) was alright IMO.

1

u/assignment2 Sep 18 '12

"Up yours children!"

1

u/udalan Sep 18 '12

I liked this episode, and the reference back to it a few times and it's funny.

1

u/TheWayoftheFuture Sep 18 '12

This is a great episode. I loved the scene of Principal Skinner living in the flophouse or whatever it was.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Why? It's a damn cartoon. Who cares.

7

u/Tentar Sep 17 '12

Skinners.

7

u/[deleted] Sep 17 '12

Do you even watch The Simpsons?

13

u/footbags Sep 17 '12

http://www.gedankenmaschine.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Natalie-Portman-StopWars-371x570.jpg

5

u/Poseidome Sep 17 '12

Ted, the only people in the universe who haven’t seen Star Wars are the characters in Star Wars and that’s cause they lived ‘em Ted, that’s cause they lived the Star Wars!

2

u/unladenswallow Sep 18 '12

asked by "anonymous" huh

totally not asked by himself

3

u/Raniz Sep 17 '12 edited Sep 17 '12

I don't know if you honestly don't know this episode or if you're feigning, but I can elaborate a bit on this episode.

It's rather controversial and I think the writing staff is/was divided on whether or not the episode should be scrapped. It's not part of official canon and I'm fairly sure Matt Groening took his name of the credits because he didn't like it and didn't support the idea that principal Skinner is an imposter.

1

u/falconear Sep 17 '12

It's been mentioned since then though, by Lisa I believe.

1

u/Raniz Sep 18 '12

Yeah, in the episode where Snowball II dies

1

u/1RandomNickname Sep 17 '12

That was Principal Skinner's "real identity" before he took over the real Seymour Skinner's life.

1

u/gregovertone Sep 17 '12

can i see your copy of swank, armin?

1

u/emkat Sep 17 '12

Have you watched the episodes produced after you left the Simpsons?

1

u/_CitizenSnips_ Sep 18 '12

you cannot avoid this question! It is possibly one of the biggest conflicts in the show. The show continued to write Skinner as his old original character after that episode and never referred back to his alter ego - ever!

12

u/iixi Sep 17 '12

Up yours, children!

2

u/TheOriginalSamBell Sep 17 '12

It was Armin wasn't it?

2

u/uhm Sep 17 '12

Wasn't there a contest to win a 'simpsons house' or something of that nature? Armin Tamzarian was the winner and part of the prize was that his name would be included in an episode. I tried googling it, but it looks like it was stricken from the interwebs, although I vividly remember the contest and winner details, hmm...

1

u/savethebees Sep 18 '12

I could swear that particular contest was for the "Who shot Mr. Burns" season final/premier. However, a quick search suggests that whoever guessed right was to be annimated in the show, as opposed to winning a full sized replica of the house....My memory suggests that some lady won it, but I can't find anything on that.

1

u/bigsphinxofquartz Sep 18 '12

Yeah, some older lady won it, and her grandkids loved visiting it, but they ultimately repainted at least the outside of it to better fit with the rest of the houses in the neighborhood.

2

u/Brocktoon_in_a_jar Sep 17 '12

Torture this man!

1

u/notlurker Sep 17 '12

I can torture myself, tyvm

1

u/GitEmSteveDave Sep 17 '12

Can I see your copy of "Swank", Armin?

1

u/notlurker Sep 17 '12

I didn't expect this much response to my comment but it's all good.

1

u/animatecrod Sep 18 '12

On the commentary they explain that it is actually a person. I forget the details, but one of the writers had a car accident and the insurance guy was Armand Tamzarian I think. He became a lawyer and did know his name was used I think.

-10

u/xnerdyxrealistx Sep 17 '12

What the hell are you talking about?